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State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

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Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#141

Post by mwhite »

georgefrick wrote: post #130

I'm not a fan of these discussions at all. We're all supposed to have been using X framework at X time period. In the enterprise we can't just keep rewriting all the god damn applications. For us contractors, we have to answer to clients we had 2 years ago about why their app is in Backbone. I mean, damn; we have to build software here and we aren't all Facebook. You might get warm and fuzzies from constantly startin…

No one is saying that no one should still use tech that was previously state of the art. No one is saying that you need to rewrite existing apps if there's no business need to.

I use Backbone models in a React app because Backbone is still the best library for models. I haven't tried Redux because it doesn't solve any problem I know I have.

Plenty of people skipped Angular because they knew it wasn't going to be on top of the hill for very long in the evolution of the frontend ecosystem.

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#142

Post by ericflo »

georgefrick wrote: post #130

I'm not a fan of these discussions at all. We're all supposed to have been using X framework at X time period. In the enterprise we can't just keep rewriting all the god damn applications. For us contractors, we have to answer to clients we had 2 years ago about why their app is in Backbone. I mean, damn; we have to build software here and we aren't all Facebook. You might get warm and fuzzies from constantly startin…

The good news is that Angular 1.x will work fine. It'll get the job done, there's a huge pool of talent to pull from, and it's proven to work at scale. However there are newer, better technologies now, and in 2 years time, there will be better ones still. It's a tradeoff like any other.

And while certain fads do come and go, there are also larger shifts and it's pretty clear by now that React's declarative-reactive style is the direction the industry as a whole is going.

The aggregate community is always searching for better solutions, it just so happens that this aggregate community is now huge and that means lots of people thinking about the same problems, meaning we make faster progress.

Old things don't stop working, but new things can be made better! What's the harm? Why so angry?

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#143

Post by untog »

increment_i wrote: post #107

Whenever these kinds of JS commentaries pop up on HN nowadays, I notice two distinct camps of commenters emerge: Those who are obviously steeped in the JS scene and are delighted to argue the finer, more sophisticated points of it, and those who take their best look, step back, and criticize this convoluted house of cards - and of course proceed to be downvoted into the Stone Age as the latest casualty of HN censorsh…

> criticize this convoluted house of cards - and of course proceed to be downvoted into the Stone Age as the latest casualty of HN censorship.

Pretty much all of the top comments are criticisms like you have outlined. They almost always are, too - they might get downvoted, but they get upvoted a lot more.

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#144

Post by untog »

bottled_poe wrote: post #94
Lazare wrote: post #15

I agree with 90% of this. React, Redux, ESLint with airbnb config, npm, webpack, lodash, ramda, fetch, css modules...absolutely. I disagree with the breezy assertion that types don't matter, and the offhand dismisal of TypeScript. And saying that "TypeScript tries too hard to make JavaScript like C# or Java" reveals, in my view, a fundamental failure to understand what TypeScript does. I also think the author is a bi…

mocha, ava, expect, chai, painless... honestly what the fuck is this. I'm not a javascript developer - is the ecosystem really so fragmented? What a nightmare.

JavaScript is hardly the only language to have multiple test runners.

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#145

Post by narrator »

georgefrick wrote: post #130

I'm not a fan of these discussions at all. We're all supposed to have been using X framework at X time period. In the enterprise we can't just keep rewriting all the god damn applications. For us contractors, we have to answer to clients we had 2 years ago about why their app is in Backbone. I mean, damn; we have to build software here and we aren't all Facebook. You might get warm and fuzzies from constantly startin…

I just don't get the reactjs hype either. If you look at the data[1], it's still in the early phases of the adoption cycle while angular is a very broadly used technology. I guess if you just look at the bay area it looks like it's getting some traction, at least in San Francisco[2].

[1] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=angularjs%2C%20react... [2]https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=807&cmpt=q&q=angul...

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#146

Post by dang »

increment_i wrote: post #107

Whenever these kinds of JS commentaries pop up on HN nowadays, I notice two distinct camps of commenters emerge: Those who are obviously steeped in the JS scene and are delighted to argue the finer, more sophisticated points of it, and those who take their best look, step back, and criticize this convoluted house of cards - and of course proceed to be downvoted into the Stone Age as the latest casualty of HN censorsh…

> and of course proceed to be downvoted into the Stone Age as the latest casualty of HN censorship

That's not true. If anything, more people here support the house of cards view.

It's a common cognitive bias on HN to see the community as lined up against one. Of course the opposite side imagines the same thing. L'enfer c'est les autres.

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#147

Post by jmduke »

ericflo wrote: post #142
georgefrick wrote: post #130

I'm not a fan of these discussions at all. We're all supposed to have been using X framework at X time period. In the enterprise we can't just keep rewriting all the god damn applications. For us contractors, we have to answer to clients we had 2 years ago about why their app is in Backbone. I mean, damn; we have to build software here and we aren't all Facebook. You might get warm and fuzzies from constantly startin…

The good news is that Angular 1.x will work fine. It'll get the job done, there's a huge pool of talent to pull from, and it's proven to work at scale. However there are newer, better technologies now, and in 2 years time, there will be better ones still. It's a tradeoff like any other. And while certain fads do come and go, there are also larger shifts and it's pretty clear by now that React's declarative-reactive s…

I think there are frustrations borne from two main places:

- Code is fashion; for some (especially on HN) there is inherent value in using technologies that are bleeding-edge and in vogue. Additionally, the necessity to use things that are bleeding-edge and/or in vogue is amplified when you're on HN or similar communities, much in the same way that the quality of your raw denim is amplified when you're on a fashion forum or with a bunch of stylish people.

- Fashion fades; building something when it's in vogue in 2015 for the sole reason that its in vogue in 2015 feels a lot worse when its in 2016 and suddenly the underlying technologies are not so shiny.

I think it can be easy to muddle 'progress' in the sense of "how do we move web technologies forward?" and 'progress' in the sense of "how do we deliver value to clients and customers?" As someone who is fairly shy of the current fashion (namely the React + Redux stack, which I've had the pleasure of working with the past couple weeks and whoa is it cool!) -- I'm not entirely convinced that the value delivered by using these technologies always outweighs the risk that they'll be obviated in less than a years' time. And so, there is a risk inherent in rapid progress, if rapid progress necessitates (as it seems to) the abandonment of anything that isn't pushing forward.

Choosing your technologies is a value proposition: every choice has positives and negatives. It can be frustrating to realize in retrospect that the positives weren't that positive and that there were negatives you didn't even imagine.

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#148

Post by jmduke »

narrator wrote: post #145
georgefrick wrote: post #130

I'm not a fan of these discussions at all. We're all supposed to have been using X framework at X time period. In the enterprise we can't just keep rewriting all the god damn applications. For us contractors, we have to answer to clients we had 2 years ago about why their app is in Backbone. I mean, damn; we have to build software here and we aren't all Facebook. You might get warm and fuzzies from constantly startin…

I just don't get the reactjs hype either. If you look at the data[1], it's still in the early phases of the adoption cycle while angular is a very broadly used technology. I guess if you just look at the bay area it looks like it's getting some traction, at least in San Francisco[2]. [1] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=angularjs%2C%20react... [2] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=807&cmpt=q&q=angul...

For me, at least, it is a helpful reminder that HN is disproportionately enamored with the bleeding edge, and that at any given time around a thousand people are exploring Java for every one person exploring React.

(Put another way: hype, even valid hype, can fall victim to an echo chamber.)

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#149

Post by weddpros »

jmduke wrote: post #148
narrator wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get the reactjs hype either. If you look at the data[1], it's still in the early phases of the adoption cycle while angular is a very broadly used technology. I guess if you just look at the bay area it looks like it's getting some traction, at least in San Francisco[2]. [1] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=angularjs%2C%20react... [2] https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=807&cmpt=q&q=angul...

For me, at least, it is a helpful reminder that HN is disproportionately enamored with the bleeding edge, and that at any given time around a thousand people are exploring Java for every one person exploring React. (Put another way: hype, even valid hype, can fall victim to an echo chamber.)

"state of the art" is the keyword in the title.

It does mean bleeding edge, most hyped, etc...

Re: State of the Art JavaScript in 2016

#150

Post by jmduke »

weddpros wrote: post #149
jmduke wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, at least, it is a helpful reminder that HN is disproportionately enamored with the bleeding edge, and that at any given time around a thousand people are exploring Java for every one person exploring React. (Put another way: hype, even valid hype, can fall victim to an echo chamber.)

"state of the art" is the keyword in the title. It does mean bleeding edge, most hyped, etc...

Right. My point is more that the relative importance of using 'state of the art' technologies is overhyped on sites like HN, and that its role in the overall zeitgeist of computing is not as large as HN would have you believe.
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