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I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

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Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#241

Post by acdha »

Jean-Philipe wrote: post #230
ChuckMcM wrote: post #206

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

I agree with you on all your points, except: > This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in trouble going to China for manufacturing. I keep hearing about the "cheap Chinese tech", even though nowadays a lot of high-quality gadgets are really Chinese. Even Apple's products are mostly from China. And it's not even for the cheap prices, it's because the entire production chain is there[1] The mistake is not going…

This is a great point, and there's a close parallel with the way that people make similar comments about Indian developers and completely ignore the many highly-qualified developers who just won't work at lowest-payer wages.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#242

Post by josteink »

smegel wrote: post #217

What has this got to do with Android?

> What has this got to do with Android?

Not much. But Android is pluggable, Linux based, and easy to put an OTG Ethernet adapter into to divert supposedly "secure" wifi traffic.

I really think "Android" and the "as bad as you think" meme is just used here to grab attention to something which is definitely worthy of it:

About IoT and what terrible things people are doing with it.

How long did it take for the web to mature? Do we have to wait that long for IoT to settle as well?

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#243

Post by oh_sigh »

eloff wrote: post #5

Turning lights on at 3 a.m. is a nuisance. Knowing when lights go on and off can tell you when the people are not in their room - which could help if you wanted to break in and steal their stuff. Overall quite disconcerting how lax they are with security.

Also, you may be able to start a fire in someones room by constantly switching lights/outlets on/off

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#244

Post by manarth »

Johnny555 wrote: post #168
manarth wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need to look at Therac-25 for a device which lacked hardware interlocks/cut-offs, had flawed/buggy software interlocks, and still received certification.

You mean I only need to look back 35 years to a professional medical device built when computer control was still very new and that wasn't intended to be operated by unskilled consumers, and wasn't certified by to be safe for home use?

Therac's often used as the "canonical" example, but there are more recent issues that stem from a lack of a physical interlock:

  - VW's dieselgate (although that was intentional)
  - Virgin Galactic VSS Enterprise crash
    (yes, designed for a skilled operator, but still: no interlock on the brake)
  - Pyranha Moulding's industrial oven [1]
  - Hotpoint tumble-dryers catching fire [2]
Even without network connectivity, household products still get recalled for issues such as fire risk, because they lack things like thermal cutoffs, or the cutoff is in some way inadequate.

Perhaps 35 years ago computer control was still very new, but right now, IoT is very new, so there's a whole new world of mistakes to learn from, and the evidence is very clear: serious mistakes are being made.

  [1] http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/pyranha_mouldings_ltd/
  [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35744313

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#245

Post by DanBC »

oh_sigh wrote: post #243
eloff wrote: post #5

Turning lights on at 3 a.m. is a nuisance. Knowing when lights go on and off can tell you when the people are not in their room - which could help if you wanted to break in and steal their stuff. Overall quite disconcerting how lax they are with security.

Also, you may be able to start a fire in someones room by constantly switching lights/outlets on/off

How would that start a fire?

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#246

Post by colejohnson66 »

vonmoltke wrote: post #58
elorant wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in-mind that we're talking about always connected devices. Firmware updates could be done remotely without the end user needed to do anything, except perhaps give his approval.

Which introduces a whole new set of security challenges to prevent attackers from getting write access to the devices.

You can do what Apple does and require the firmware to be signed

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#247

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

aidenn0 wrote: post #231
uxp wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most "dumb" thermostats still require an external power source to continue to operate. Very few actually pull operating current from the 24v C wire if it even exists on the given system. If it doesn't, R (the switched 24v power for Heat and Cold signals) isn't guaranteed to continually have current. Only when your Heat is turned on (probably a standard toggle lightswitch on the side of your furnace) will…

Really? Most thermostats I've seen are a bimetallic strip with either a magnet or a mercury switch for hysteresis.

Can you even buy those anymore?

The GP is right: most new thermostats don't take power from the 24VAC line. That surprised me when my heat wouldn't come on one morning because the battery was too weak to pull in the relay for more than a few seconds. That's what I get for ignoring the "low battery" warning! All my previous electronic thermostats only used the battery as a backup.

In any case, are you really saying that using a toxic metal (mercury), or an imprecise bimetallic strip is really an improvement over a simple $10 electronic thermostat?

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#248

Post by gherkin0 »

zyxley wrote: post #215
ChuckMcM wrote: post #206

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

> I learned that before that clause had been part of the standard contract, there had been a manufacturer who decided unilaterally that half of the noise suppression capacitors in the schematic were "unneeded." I don't understand how putting that in the contract is supposed to help if the manufacturer being used is pulling stupid "you didn't say the product actually had to work" semantics games that would get them sm…

I'm totally speculating, but it could be that such clauses make the breach of contract case easier and cheaper to win.

It could also be that such clear terms are useful in other jurisdictions where shenanigans like that wouldn't be smacked down without them.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#249

Post by CyberDildonics »

Jean-Philipe wrote: post #230
ChuckMcM wrote: post #206

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

I agree with you on all your points, except: > This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in trouble going to China for manufacturing. I keep hearing about the "cheap Chinese tech", even though nowadays a lot of high-quality gadgets are really Chinese. Even Apple's products are mostly from China. And it's not even for the cheap prices, it's because the entire production chain is there[1] The mistake is not going…

He wasn't making a point about China, he was making a point about cutting corners.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#250

Post by CyberDildonics »

brbsix wrote: post #218
ChuckMcM wrote: post #206

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

There are a few realms of business that seemingly necessitate such games. It's about as aggravating as can be imagined. I wish I knew a way around it. Different people? Closer aligned incentives? The cross-cultural aspects here make it especially difficult. You don't know what you don't know.

Closer aligned incentives, yes. If you give someone money as gradually as possible they will need to make sure they can't pull a fast one and run off, they will actually need to perform.
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