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Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

bbc.com

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Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#11

Post by kazinator »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #3
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet d…

Dogs are not exactly in captivity; they are domestic. Many of them show that they are not in captivity by roaming freely but then returning home.

They do so even if they are not verbally threatened with negative consequences if they fail to come home; and they wouldn't understand that anyway. :)

Domestic animals kept as pets that are treated well have good lives that they arguably enjoy. Wild animals have it very tough, by contrast.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#12

Post by staticautomatic »

jqm wrote: post #10
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

I think it was the political philosopher Robert Nozick who posed a related question: If it's acceptable for humans to eat "lower" life forms, then would it be acceptable for a much more intelligent or sentient alien race to eat humans?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#13

Post by manachar »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #3
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet d…

At this point we still cannot actually negotiate with our pets to establish a mutually satisfactory relationship.

Domesticated animals are animals that co-evolved with modern humans (lately with a lot of human selection). Some of our practices towards our pets are barbaric now. For instance, purposefully breeding worse and worse genes to get a flatter face despite the misery this causes the dogs.

But in other ways, dogs and cats still can't make choices about things that would allow us to treat them as equals.

For instance, we forcibly sterilize cats and dogs so they don't breed and contribute to the overpopulation problem. We restrict their movement so they do not endanger others or themselves. Outdoor cats are an environmental catastrophe in most areas.

It's tough to know what the right treatment of a pet is. I do believe we've gotten better. It used to be common for vets to not give pain meds to dogs recovering from surgery. I guess it's easier to ignore the pain when they can't talk to you. It also used to be common to shoot a dog who has broken a leg. I recently had a dog who had osteosarcoma. We paid to have his leg amputated and for chemo. Our conversations with the vet were nearly identical to how I'd approach getting cancer. Some people thought we were nuts paying for such care.

Cats are still treated as disposable by many people. One step above a goldfish. Meanwhile, some people are starting to actually take koi fish in to vets for treatment.

If you treat your pets as individual lives worthy of dignity and let that inform your thinking, I imagine you're already better than most of human history's brutally utilitarian approach.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#14

Post by zipwitch »

jqm wrote: post #10
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

I've no idea where we can draw a line on "sentience". But when it comes to creatures that seem highly likely to be on the same side of the line that we are, I think its far better to err by being too generous with our definitions.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#15

Post by matwood »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #3
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet d…

> I have a pet dog. I think I treat her well. Will my descendants look back on this and compare me to my not-so-distant ancestors who were racist or sexist?

I know mine will not. My dogs are living the good life.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#16

Post by Tiktaalik »

> In line with this, several decades of observation show that orcas are not naturally violent towards humans. There are no recorded cases of a wild orca killing a human.

In a recent BBC Attenborough documentary (I think Frozen Planet) there was a sequence where they showed teams of killer whales swiftly swimming just under the surface to create a wave in an attempt to knock a seal off an ice flow so that they could eat it.

After the main part of the documentary they had a "making of" component that showed how the film crew got the shots and made the film, and they showed the killer whales trying to do the same trick on the tiny boat the camera men were on to try to knock them into the water.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#17

Post by avdempsey »

jqm wrote: post #10
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

If you're interested in these questions I highly recommend the book "Beyond Words" by Carl Safina. He embeds with researchers that have been living with different species for decades. Cataloging the exploits of individuals and families across generations. We should not simply assume animals have the same experiences as humans, but we should also not assume they don't. Safina's book shows as we're actually investigating this question we're discovering there's likely a lot more richness to the animal experience than we expected. Fascinating subject, and beautifully written book.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#18

Post by Joof »

staticautomatic wrote: post #12
jqm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

I think it was the political philosopher Robert Nozick who posed a related question: If it's acceptable for humans to eat "lower" life forms, then would it be acceptable for a much more intelligent or sentient alien race to eat humans?

That's a question where its extroidinarily hard to draw the line. Assuming it is immoral to consume another life form, then there goes 100% of our food source (plants are life and show some intelligence in aggregate).

If nothing can consume anything else then life can't exist.

I'd argue that their ethical standards are wholly separate from our own. For humans, self-preservation as a race is very important.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#20

Post by krapp »

jqm wrote: post #10
carapace wrote: post #2

They are sentient. It is slavery.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

I think "sentience" is a political and religious concept, a vestige of the days when it was simply assumed that humans were unique, even blessed by God, and all other forms of life were just meat machines running blind algorithms. The truth is probably that sentience doesn't exist, only differing levels of complexity between one form of life and another.
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