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America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

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Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#291

Post by jessaustin »

lagadu wrote: post #263
tn13 wrote: post #191

Public schooling is trash in USA. As an Asian parent I can tell you it is more than worthless. That is what happens when you put government into too much of control. Americans as a society have clearly traded job safety of teacher for good quality education. Stossel's Stupid in America : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

> That is what happens when you put government into too much of control. This doesn't make any sense, most of the leading countries have far more governmental control over education than the US does. If "governmental control" is your metric of choice, the US would need to increase it badly.

If the government bureaucrats responsible for education in other nations had performed as poorly as their American counterparts, they would have been fired decades ago. (In China and similar polities, the firing might have been done by a squad.) When people decry government control in the USA context, the focus of the complaint is the complete lack of accountability by government personnel for the results of their actions and decisions.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#292

Post by pflats »

ryaniscool wrote: post #265

As a parent of a school-age child, I hate studies like this. It's exactly the sort of thing that leads to mandated programs like common core. Here's the thing, my son spends more time doing homework and studying for tests in elementary school than I ever did throughout my entire public education. I have worked internationally. From my own anecdotal experience, I didn't see a difference in intelligence or ability to d…

>It's exactly the sort of thing that leads to mandated programs like common core.

What exactly is wrong with the common core?

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#293

Post by bunkydoo »

Well one thing to keep in mind is that some American States alone are the same size in terms of population of some of these entire countries being praised for having better education systems than the US. Sure we can learn from some of the small nuances of their systems, but infrastructurally we are in a much different situation than most of these examples (Finland/Japan)

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#294

Post by tokenadult »

panglott wrote: post #286

I always wish these reports would break out the average vs. the distribution. America, more than any other developed country, tolerates a high level of poverty. And poor kids just don't have the resources to do well in school, and bring the average down. The single largest predictor of how well kids will do in school is not any in-school factor, but rather the socioeconomic status of their parents.

I always wish these reports would break out the average vs. the distribution.

The report does that for you, if you trouble yourself to look it up, and I quoted that part of the report in a comment I posted yesterday. Here is a longer quotation for you.

"In numeracy and problem solving in technology-rich environments, the United States performed below the PIAAC international average. In numeracy, the U.S. average score was 12 points lower than the PIAAC international average score (257 versus 269, see figure 1-B), and in problem solving in technology-rich environments, the U.S. average score was 9 points lower than the international average (274 versus 283, see figure 1-C). Compared with the international average distributions for these skills, the United States had

"• a smaller percentage at the top (10 versus 12 percent at Level 4/5 in numeracy, and 5 versus 8 percent at Level 3 in problem solving in technology-rich environments, see figures 2-B and 2-C), and

"• a larger percentage at the bottom (28 versus 19 percent in numeracy, and 64 versus 55 percent in problem solving in technology-rich environments at Level 1 and below)."

There is more detail for you to read about if you are interested in the details, in the study report published by the international study group, with the report linked here hosted by the United States National Center for Educational Statistics.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2016/2016039.pdf

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#295

Post by krinchan »

notalaser wrote: post #180
roymurdock wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? Relative to who you meet, and what brand you get to slap on your resume at the end of the day? Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago? I think it's important to learn how to think. But you can always do that in your 4 years at college, once you get into an ivy league, right? Who needs life skills when you can get…

> One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? When I'd just finished high school, I thought it was irrelevant. Now, many years afterwards, I can see the incredible influence it had over me and I can wholeheartedly say that it does, to an incredible extent. Virtually every single element of the foundation of my profession, views about and understanding of art, science and the human spirit in ge…

I don't use Calculus every day, but the whole "stop thinking about specific Y-values and start thinking about how functions behave together and influence each other" is just invaluable in a world ruled by numbers that are in constant flux.

To be honest though, I always thought that Linear Algebra would've been a much better AP class than Calculus. Sure Calculus naturally follows Trigonometry, but Linear Algebra has the same sort of "teaches these critical thinking skills" effect and, more importantly to me, was much more visual and easier to get excited about. Especially when our class started futzing about with OpenGL and particle fountains towards the end of the class.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#296

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

rb808 wrote: post #290

I'm also a bit tired about hearing about how great Finland & Japan's schools are. How many illegal immigrants do these countries have in their school system? How many with minorities who dont speak the main language at home? How many kids in Japan/Finland dont eat properly because their families can't afford food? Of course the American's student's results are going to be worse on average.

I love how you act like these are inevitable or aren't America's issues.

The fact that poor children aren't getting enough food in a affluent Western country is abhorrent, the fact the US refuses to provide comprehensive language classes to the children of immigrants is intentionally meant to disadvantage them, the fact that the US school system has a massive disparity of funding is on purpose so that those in rich neighborhoods get a better quality of education.

Of course America's students results are worse when the American people seemingly don't care about them. Maybe you should bring in a better class of politician and instead of constantly whining about your "high" taxes you pay MORE tax and help the disadvantaged. Or heck you could cancel all of your corporate welfare and ultra-rich subsidies and use that money to help the poor...

The US prides itself on being a Christian country, but they don't act like it. Christians are socialist in nature[0].

[0] http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2011/08/12/from-jesus-soc...

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#297

Post by restalis »

chejazi wrote: post #58
esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

Public schools aren't the greatest when it comes to accelerating social mobility - a lot of my graduating class is still in my hometown. If you can afford it, a private school will put you on a more focused track to success. Still, plenty of people make it through and go on to achieve great things. Plus, they are grounded in the realities of what is commonly referred to as the 99%

"Public schools aren't the greatest when it comes to accelerating social mobility - a lot of my graduating class is still in my hometown."

"Social mobility" doesn't necessarily mean moving upwards only. Public schools therefore may indeed contribute to public mobility and even be an accelerating factor to it!

The fact that the graduates of your class are still in your hometown does not really say much about social mobility, it does only about mobility.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#298

Post by phkahler »

tallanvor wrote: post #202
gregatragenet3 wrote: post #24

Of course the US does poorly in this survey. The survey measures life skills. We've spent the last decades changing our schools from teaching life skills to pure college prep. A terrible disservice to young people. Here's some sample questions http://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Education%20and%20Skills_onli... .

I don't agree that this is the problem. I mean, it is a problem at times, but that's a separate issue. There's quite simply no easy fix here. The best schools (and yes, that includes many public schools) are teaching a variety of skills that help the students whether they're going on to college, a trade school, or straight into work. And I suspect that those schools would be competitive or even beat Japan and Finland…

>> I don't agree that this is the problem.

Life skills? I think it is. My sister was substitute teaching and a frustrated math student wanted to know "what this is good for". She said "how will you know if someone is screwing you over?" to which the kid seemed to find a fresh interest is the subject. Learning without application to real life can be boring to a lot of kids.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#299

Post by Mikeb85 »

jessaustin wrote: post #273
Mikeb85 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything less competition at poor schools gave me an extra edge. How so? Are they curving grades? Smaller class sizes because of more drop-outs? More teacher attention because you cared more than the 'poor' kids?

Obviously OP meant it is easier to get higher class rank/valedictorian at poor noncompetitive schools than at rich competitive schools. Many colleges use class rank when deciding admittance.

The wonders of the US education system never cease to amaze me.

Are tests not standardized that class rank matters? When I first entered university here, grade average was all that mattered. Certain grades even guarantee university acceptance...

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#300

Post by pitt1980 »

EliRivers wrote: post #218
esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

"I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination)" Why is being indoctrinated by parents any better?

for one, parents have a different incentive structure than teachers do

while parents aren't perfectly incentivized, they have a larger stake in you growing into a happy and healthy adult than teachers do

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