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America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

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Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#171

Post by patio11 »

tamana wrote: post #67
mikeyouse wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many public schools are just fine, if not excellent.. Something like 90% of my 300-student graduating class ended up in college, several dozen at Ivys or "near-Ivy" schools. We had intensive programming classes and maybe 15 or 20 AP options. This was just a random upper middle class district in the Midwest, we were rarely on the list of the 100-best schools in the state.

That doesn't pass the smell test all. Your school sent 10% of its students to elite colleges, that's clearly not common.

Not at all uncommon for upper-middle class school districts in the mid-West. Think "Chicago suburbs with $500k average houses." I went to one. Great school; fits same rough statistical profile.

Then you have e.g. Chicago Public Schools, which range from comparable at the very top end to "not particularly inspiring" to "attending this school is of comparable danger to being deployed to a war zone."

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#172

Post by marincounty »

esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

I think getting them into a community college is brilliant. Make sure they stick with it though.

While I didn't have to worry about gangs, or really even drugs in high school; for myself, and my little sister--we learned absolutely nothing in high school. Actually, I had a good biology teacher, but that's about it. My sister only achievement in high school was being voted best looking. She was there so little, I'm suprised the students noticed her.

That said, I made up everything I missed in high school, and a lot more, in two semesters at a community college. (Complete honesty. It was two semesters. I actually enjoyed school again.)

I think I'm older than a lot of you, but going to high school was a waste of time, and even left emotional scars on my own psyche? I hated high school. I hated the different groups. I hated the after school fights. I hated showing up to class tired, my skin inflamed, hormones seemingly off the charts; all to a teacher who obviously didn't care to be there.

I recall going to the school counselor, and asking to drop out. He looked at me for a few awkward seconds, and said, "------, I know it's a joke. Just finish. Get that diploma. College will be different. I give you my word. Just finish. Just show up."

Well I finished, and I'm glad I did. If I was able to do it over again, I would definetly have gone to a community college as as soon as possible though.

Community college has it's downfalls, but for myself I really enjoyed my two years there, actually 2.5 years. If you are young, and reading this, I think going to a community college is a great idea. While in that community college, your main goal should be trying to transfer into a four year college.

Yea, I know. College is a lot of bs, but this rediculious society still judges people on wether they went to college.

I see that changing though. If you are interested in computer programming; I honestly don't see the need for college, but I'm nobody. Actually, I take that back. You need a diverse backround. Some of you have parents that can point you to the right books, but I didn't.

Again, I loved going to a community college. I saved a fortune, and learned a lot.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#173

Post by coryrc »

roymurdock wrote: post #107
gregatragenet3 wrote: post #24

Of course the US does poorly in this survey. The survey measures life skills. We've spent the last decades changing our schools from teaching life skills to pure college prep. A terrible disservice to young people. Here's some sample questions http://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Education%20and%20Skills_onli... .

One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? Relative to who you meet, and what brand you get to slap on your resume at the end of the day? Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago? I think it's important to learn how to think. But you can always do that in your 4 years at college, once you get into an ivy league, right? Who needs life skills when you can get…

I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic. Of course I remember what I learned in high school. Just had to waste time repeating orders that 90* is the proper offset so the slope is maximum on one sine wave when the slope is minimum on another.

It'd be really great if they taught kids accounting, net present value calculations, how to clean themselves properly, avoid getting pregnant when desired, and so many other skills. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good parents.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#174

Post by vectorjohn »

mrlatinos wrote: post #73
cmurf wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if they don't want to do web dev work, ever?

Yeah, this comment is ridiculous. "Public schools suck so I'll force my kids to do what I never had the chance to." Great logic. My dad was athletic and supported me in being a nerdy band kid programmer. I will do the same for mine. I will make sure that the school they go to is good, but I won't force them to be passionate about something by bribing them with $60/hr.

That brings up another good thing about sending your kids to school. You owe it to them to expose them to more than just their overbearing parents like. Maybe they end up liking something different than you and that's good!

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#175

Post by vectorjohn »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64
mattmanser wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wake-up call, we're a community of programmers and contrary to our echo-chamber, programming is 1 skill of the thousands which make money. I know a range of different people, none of them are programmers. Do you think only programmers make money? I am actually shocked and disgusted by his idea of parenting. He wants to isolate them from other children and teach them one skill instead of letting them learn a range and…

Why do you think farmers used to have a dozen kids? Extra labor to help around the farm. If your parent is a minister, you'll be helping around the church as a teenager. Or how about the common last name 'Smith', as in 'that family of blacksmiths'? Parents teaching their kids the family trade is as old as history. Maybe there are other ways, but to 'shock and disgust' seems a bit extreme.

That is a horrible defense of a horrible sounding parent.

Other comments have made the required comparisons to other idiotic appeals to antiquity, but there's another thing. It seems almost barbaric when we're past the time when people had almost no say in their career path to limit your children's exposure to add many ideas and experiences as you can. A farmer in the 1600's didn't have much choice, but we do now.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#176

Post by grogenaut »

coryrc wrote: post #173
roymurdock wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? Relative to who you meet, and what brand you get to slap on your resume at the end of the day? Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago? I think it's important to learn how to think. But you can always do that in your 4 years at college, once you get into an ivy league, right? Who needs life skills when you can get…

I'm not sure if your post is sarcastic. Of course I remember what I learned in high school. Just had to waste time repeating orders that 90* is the proper offset so the slope is maximum on one sine wave when the slope is minimum on another. It'd be really great if they taught kids accounting, net present value calculations, how to clean themselves properly, avoid getting pregnant when desired, and so many other skill…

My catholic highschool taught me all of the above and prepped me well for college. Even taught me to question religion and a lot of other things. Point was "think for yourself, come to your own conclusions. Love God for real." I didn't get the last one, got the other two. They were totally fine with the result.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#177

Post by tonyedgecombe »

m0llusk wrote: post #89
spike021 wrote: post #78

I won't go into much detail because I would wind up ranting and only be somewhat understandable.. However, as an American citizen who went to public schools as a child/teenager and am now finishing up at a public state university, I'm inclined to say that the education system here is a complete wash. It works for some people who fit the one-size mold that the system here seems to target, but there are a large number…

This may be true, but oddly enough it might not really matter. If math such as investigated here is required then those skills can be outsourced to those who are so gifted. The most important thing is the gift of enterprise and entrepreneurship which schools around the world are desperately trying to pick up from the US. Math is great, but ultimately it must be used as a means to some ends and that is where US studen…

Or perhaps it does matter, middle and lower incomes in the US have been stagnating for a long time.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#178

Post by anderspitman »

nfd wrote: post #155
esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

Look, I was homeschooled, and it's possible to do it right. Don't get me wrong. The way I was homeschooled, however, wreaked total havoc on my long-term mental health (though you better believe I ran the equivalent of "lock your child in a basement with an Apple II and a book of documentation on Applesoft Basic" on myself and learned what a sweet hack looks like). I ran headfirst into college with poor social skills…

This. My experience was nowhere near as extreme, but I was homeschooled and started college full time at 14. It's taken me years to catch up socially, and I still struggle sometimes. Do not underestimate the importance of traditional social exposure typically experienced in public school. I'm grateful for my experience. I feel like it gives me a unique outlook that is valuable, but for my kids I think I'd prefer the social aspect.

Sorry you've had a rough go of it nfd.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#179

Post by alextgordon »

mindcrime wrote: post #133
Throwaway23412 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I missing something? In what world does the average young person not use a drop-down menu? Also, doesn't Snapchat require an email to register? Do young people not use iMessage or any other messaging app to send text messages? Are you making a joke that went over my head?

In what world does the average young person not use a drop-down menu? I'm thinking in terms of "old style" drop down menus, as in ones you'd see in a browser on a desktop PC. As opposed to the newer style that replace those in smartphone apps and browsers. Also, doesn't Snapchat require an email to register? Probably, but that doesn't mean many young people actually use email, at least not on any regular basis. Heck,…

If they get an office job they are going to have to use drop-down menus, rename files, send emails, etc. If schools only taught teenagers the skills that teenagers deem relevant... there wouldn't be much need for schools.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#180

Post by notalaser »

roymurdock wrote: post #107
gregatragenet3 wrote: post #24

Of course the US does poorly in this survey. The survey measures life skills. We've spent the last decades changing our schools from teaching life skills to pure college prep. A terrible disservice to young people. Here's some sample questions http://www.oecd.org/site/piaac/Education%20and%20Skills_onli... .

One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school? Relative to who you meet, and what brand you get to slap on your resume at the end of the day? Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago? I think it's important to learn how to think. But you can always do that in your 4 years at college, once you get into an ivy league, right? Who needs life skills when you can get…

> One has to wonder...does it really matter what you learn in school?

When I'd just finished high school, I thought it was irrelevant. Now, many years afterwards, I can see the incredible influence it had over me and I can wholeheartedly say that it does, to an incredible extent.

Virtually every single element of the foundation of my profession, views about and understanding of art, science and the human spirit in general have been touched by the interaction I had with my teachers, more often than not mediated by what they taught.

I do not agree with everything I learned in school. Many of the things that I do agree with (because there is no objective disagreeing with e.g. Calculus) I now view in an entirely different light than that in which they were taught to me. I passionately hated (and still hate) the idea of schools -- either state institutions, or for-profit private entities -- having a monopoly over intellectual and often ethical concepts, so I went through school challenging it intensely.

As for this though:

> Do you remember anything you learned in AP Calc or APUSH all those years ago?

Calculus is the mathematical foundation of virtually every engineering profession so yes, not only do I remember everything I was taught in AP Calc, I apply a lot of it every single day.

I didn't go to high school in the US so I didn't go through APUSH, but History is one of the most important subjects that was ever taught to me. It is not a tool with which one is able to predict the future, but it is a large set of lenses through which one can look at the present and understand it.

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