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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#541

Post by dvcrn »

I think this is really fascinating but also scary. Imagine you are the best in the world in something. That is your thing and no one else can do it better than you.

Then suddenly a computer comes along and takes that title from you. But it takes it in such a way that you are never in your life able to re-take it because of how the AI works.

A game will likely just be the first field. My girlfriend is working in translation and interpretation which is another area already in the crosshair of neural networks. AIs will step by step become more efficient than people and that is terrifying.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#542

Post by jsf666 »

jonbarker wrote: post #443

AI enthusiast and amateur player here: Michael Redmond made a great point yesterday, if the algorithm is only interested in maximizing probability of win and ignoring margin of victory, shouldn't there be some override for weak moves played when the lead is sufficient? AlphaGo played some weak moves when it perceived it was sufficiently ahead yesterday in the end game. A truly intelligent opponent will play strong mo…

I think the point is the seemingly stronger move (giving a bigger margin) can have follow ups that can lead to a lower chance of winning for the AI evaluation

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#543

Post by JabavuAdams »

imaginenore wrote: post #464
JabavuAdams wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this stuff is that good yet. I see no fundamental limit, but let's not pretend that machine-generated music or poetry is as good as the best human stuff, yet.

Actually my very first example of the classical music IS that good. The guy created and sold 13 different albums: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cope#Discography And they were well accepted by the music community.

Ok, I'll have to listen. I have his computer musical creativity book. Guess I should finish reading that too.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#544

Post by [deleted] »

nathan_f77 wrote: post #441
igravious wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Last night I found that on the DeepMind channel they were explaining the game a lot for beginners. This was a bit tedious for me but then this is a historic event so there'll be noobs tuning in so I can understand that, and I appreciate that the TV people are thinking of them. Also, the AGA channel you just seem to have a split screen showing two people with headphones on talking over Skype? (Granted, one…

I was wondering why they didn't keep a running total of the score after each move, and show it somewhere on the screen. Isn't that pretty easy to automate?

[deleted]

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#545

Post by forgotpwtomain »

nathan_f77 wrote: post #441
igravious wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Last night I found that on the DeepMind channel they were explaining the game a lot for beginners. This was a bit tedious for me but then this is a historic event so there'll be noobs tuning in so I can understand that, and I appreciate that the TV people are thinking of them. Also, the AGA channel you just seem to have a split screen showing two people with headphones on talking over Skype? (Granted, one…

I was wondering why they didn't keep a running total of the score after each move, and show it somewhere on the screen. Isn't that pretty easy to automate?

> I was wondering why they didn't keep a running total of the score after each move, and show it somewhere on the screen. Isn't that pretty easy to automate?

Until you are close to late-game the scoring of many of the positions is quite flexible (depending on sente, and how certain local situations are resolved) so although you would may have a semi-reasonable approximations for total points, the games have been close enough that a +/- 5 point error in estimating will make it impossible to tell who is actually ahead.

That said, it would be very curious if we could get a virtual-board with AlphaGo's evaluation function used to score each position.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#546

Post by takahisah »

bronz wrote: post #55

Who was the GO professional commentator? He was consistently predicting the moves of both Sedol and alphago. I was extremely impressed.

I was also super impressed. I know him as マイケルレドモンド (Michael Redmond in Katakana), and it was the first time I saw him speak English. He's fluent in Japanese and frequently commentates on matches in Japan. This is a video of him commentating on the Meijin title matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSbN2AveJuc

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#547

Post by taneq »

cjbprime wrote: post #378
conanbatt wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be confusing correctness with relevance. You can pass at the last move and lose 1 point, but if your lead is 5, its the same win-result but not the same count-result. Well, that would be a mistake by all accounts, even if AlphaGo made it. Some of the moves AlphaGo played both in this game and the previous one are very definite mistakes, but they were irrelevant to the difference in the game.

> Well, that would be a mistake by all accounts, even if AlphaGo made it. It is only a mistake to your human biases. AlphaGo literally has no conception of the margin of a win. It doesn't care either way how many points it wins by, as long as the win percentage is maximized.

Exactly. It's actually a pretty common behaviour for tree-searching game playing algorithms. Unless they're set up to explicitly give weight to faster wins or higher margin wins, they get into an unassailable position and then just kind of dick around. If every move's a win then it doesn't matter which move you make, right?

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#549

Post by hasenj »

argonaut wrote: post #183
hasenj wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually this AI kind of confirms these myths, since its basis are not in mathematics but in neural networks. While it could be argued to be just math, so is the brain, but that's besides the point. The point is, even the programmers have no idea what the AI is thinking. The way it picks moves is very similar to how top professionals do. Intuition is reduced to memories stored vaguely as neural connections.

I fear this is an overly mystical misinterpretation of neural nets. (Standard feed-forward) neural nets are layers of non-linear feature transformations. They take inputs and at each step transform those inputs into a more compact representation, distilling the inputs into their most important factors (and throwing away unimportant factors). So the most likely explanation is that policy/value nets in AlphaGo have lea…

Well obviously it's reduced to actual algorithms.

The point is, the programmers don't quite understand what exactly are those features that the neural net is seeing.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#550

Post by EricBurnett »

criddell wrote: post #391
awl130 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're confusing performance with the underlying intellectual property (e.g., the published song)

It's the same fungibility argument though. The market for sheet music for Willie Nelson's catalog isn't affected by the availability of other music, is it? If I want to play On the Road Again , there's only one IP owner for that.

Depends if you want _that_ music that you remember, or are looking for _some_ music that you'll like though. Once you're going into it with no prior values, price popularity and expectation of interest will dominate your choices, at which point computer generated options will be totally viable.
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