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AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

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Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#551

Post by scarmig »

eru wrote: post #525
jcoffland wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading. AlphaGo beat a 2p player five months ago. Now it has beaten a 9p player. That tells is nothing about it's improvement in the intervening time. Given only this information, however unlikely, AlphaGo could have actually been stronger before.

AlphaGo lost a few of the informal matches. Also, the people working on it flat out told the world that today's version of AlphaGo beats October's version literally all the time.

Question: is ability to win Go matches ordered?

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#552

Post by Wildgoose »

eru wrote: post #525
jcoffland wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading. AlphaGo beat a 2p player five months ago. Now it has beaten a 9p player. That tells is nothing about it's improvement in the intervening time. Given only this information, however unlikely, AlphaGo could have actually been stronger before.

AlphaGo lost a few of the informal matches. Also, the people working on it flat out told the world that today's version of AlphaGo beats October's version literally all the time.

Replying to scarmig, No. Player A may consistently beat Player B who may consistently beat Player C who consistently beats Player A.

There are different strategies depending upon how much emphasis is placed upon early territorial gains as opposed to "influence" which is used for later later territorial gains.

Similarly, playing "passive" moves that make territory without starting a "fight" versus agressively contesting for every piece of territory available.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#553

Post by new299 »

maaku wrote: post #510
sethbannon wrote: post #7

I was at the 2003 match of Garry Kasparov vs Deep Junior -- the strongest chess player of all time vs what was at that point the strongest chess playing computer in history. Kasparov drew that match, but it was clear it was the last stand of homo sapiens in the man vs machine chess battle. Back then, people took solace in the game of Go. Many boldly and confidently predicted we wouldn't see a computer beat the Go wor…

> Many boldly and confidently predicted we wouldn't see a computer beat the Go world champion in our lifetimes. Sadly as I write this my uncle and personal hero who spent 17 years of his life working towards a Ph.D. on abstraction hierarchies for use in Go artificial intelligence, has been moved into hospice care. I'm just glad that in the few days that are left he has a chance to see this happen, even if it is not t…

Thanks for the link. I started reading his thesis. While AlphaGo is obviously exciting, it seems like your uncles approach could help us better understand how humans play go which seems hugely valuable. I look forward to exploring his thesis further.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#555

Post by habosa »

Radim wrote: post #538
habosa wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Fan Hui was only 2dan so this is even more insane.

Yes, AlphaGo's progress is amazing. I don't think there's any disagreement there :) But I don't think you know much about Go, if you can say Fan Hui is "just" 2 dan professional. What do you reckon the strength difference is between 2p and 9p? Nitpick: while AlphaGo today is certainly stronger than AlphaGo last October, it doesn't follow in any way from the fact that both programs beat their respective opponents. A >…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings#Elo-like_...

You can use that table to calculate the win probability for a 9dan player versus a 2dan player.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#556

Post by hosh »

scarmig wrote: post #551
eru wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AlphaGo lost a few of the informal matches. Also, the people working on it flat out told the world that today's version of AlphaGo beats October's version literally all the time.

Question: is ability to win Go matches ordered?

It's more that there are different styles of winning, and a human will tend to specialize in such a style. But generally, someone who is consistently stronger will win over someone who is consistently weaker, regardless of style.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#557

Post by ivanca »

lmm wrote: post #184
ivanca wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, the brain to operate also needs all the other systems. Just as a CPU needs all the other parts to function. And including the manufacturing equipment is just as false, in the sense that you would have to include his mother (as biological manufacturing)

The human can run off resources that are available "in the wild", self-repair, and self-replicate at better than 1:1 (that is, a group of n humans produce >n offspring), whereas the smartphone needs a huge amount of infrastructure to repair it and produce new ones. I don't think any mass comparison is really meaningful, mind, but it's not that simple.

The self-repair and self-replicate come at a very hard cost, in the sense that it requires food, water and oxygen, while machines only need electricity. And the replication is actually incomplete in the sense that it starts in a very small state where it needs the three resources to actually become a complete human (adult) and dies if not taken care by a third-party in such early state (parents).

Plus, not far away in the future we will be able to connect an smartphone to a 3D circuit printer and print a new one, to achieve 'self-replication'

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#558

Post by eternalban »

conceit wrote: post #539
cbd1984 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advanced chess players require a society which produces enough surplus to afford enough leisure to allow someone to not only produce a brain not damaged by starvation, but to allow them to use that brain to learn chess at a high level. It took a very long time for humans to get to that level, even though chess is a fairly old game. My point is, humans "in the wild" likely didn't have any equivalent to chess, because…

remember that chess is a war game and that war is most often fought over resources and territory, so they had their "chess" alright.

The story of Chess, according to Iranian mythological sources (recounted in Shahnameh) is that it was presented to the Iranian Court by the emissaries of the Indian Court, as a 'semantic puzzle' invented by Indian sages. (These games, it should be noted, were pedagogical in nature and used as symbolic means of training monarchs by the intellectual elites.)

The response of the Iranian sages was the invention of Backgammon, to highlight the role of Providence in human affairs.

[p.s. not all Iranians are willing to cede Chess to the sister civilization of India: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Sport/chess.htm] ;)

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#559

Post by Houshalter »

argonaut wrote: post #546
nullc wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people tried and failed. Today lots of people-- ones with even less background and putting in less effort-- try and are successful. This is not a small change, even if it is the product of small changes.

Reconnecting to my original point way up-thread, my point is these "innovations" have not substantially expanded the types of models we are capable of expressing (they have certainly expanded the size of the types of models we're able to train), not nearly to the same degree as backprop/convnets/LSTMs did way back decades ago (this is important because AGI will require several expansions in the types of models we are…

Right, LSTM was invented 20 years ago. 20 years from now, the great new thing will be something that has been published today. It takes time for new innovations to gain popularity and find their uses. That doesn't mean innovations are not being made!

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#560

Post by Houshalter »

argonaut wrote: post #497
Houshalter wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's best to say that alphago uses neural networks, which are extremely general. The same way planes and cars both use internal combustion engines. ICEs are extremely general. They produce mechanical energy from gas, and are totally uncaring whether you put them into a plane or a car. The body of the plane is necessary, but isn't really the interesting part. Likewise NNs are uncaring what application you put them int…

Even without the neural net system, AI is able to beat most amateurs, and predict moves experts would make.

I'm not sure that's correct. MCTS has well known weaknesses, and isn't even a predictive algorithm. MCTS on it's own couldn't get anywhere near beating the top Go champion, that requires deepminds neural networks.
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