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Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

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Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#61

Post by hobs »

pc86 wrote: post #42
hobs wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I particularly endorse the idea, but what if it was shown to unambiguously produce a better product? At that point, are you not arguing what you perceive to be a moral issue, not one of producing value for your clients? http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/america-its-ti...

Why not just work split shifts then? 8-12 and 4-8, if you want to nap in the middle that's your prerogative. The issue is paying the employee to sleep .

Because I am not asking about when someone should sleep or not.

I am asking if paying someone to do something would produce an unambiguously better product, why argue with the practice unless its harmful/illegal/etc?

If I create software and I find that if I pay my employees to sleep and they create a better product than if they worked for 8 hours without me paying them to sleep?

You can blame the employees, but if you decide to ignore this practice and your competitor takes it up, they will beat you in the market while you complain about paying people to sleep.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#62

Post by hobs »

pc86 wrote: post #58
balabaster wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then they'll just jam another contract in that 4 hours... they won't sleep. The issue isn't paying the employee to sleep, that's just a symptom of the real issue: The issue is poor time and resource management or poor setting of client expectations on the part of the employee. They're not setting expectations well enough to manage their time and get the sleep they need to do the job they agreed to do when they we…

I agree in the OP's case this is a disciplinary issue. I would argue it's cause for termination but I imagine that's a minority opinion here. I was referring to hobs's suggestion that a mid-day nap increase employee productivity and work quality. That may very well be the case but I still wouldn't pay employees to nap in the middle of the day.

To be clear, I dont think it is a minority opinion, I have fired half a dozen people for sleeping on the job, it was against policy and it was unprofessional in the workplace I was a part of.

My point is that things we think may be taboo could in fact be beneficial if we are willing to reconsider the assumptions that it is based upon.

Anyway, thank you for letting me play devil's advocate :)

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#63

Post by jlos »

I disagree with the other comments here about your extra work. Your time outside work is your own and there are a dozen reasons why there are days a nap will be beneficial (kids of almost any age come to mind). However, you probably have enough time to nap just not the place to do so.

Most jobs will give you close to an hour for lunch and maybe even another short break during the day. That's plenty of time to nap, so long as there is somewhere quiet, private, and somewhat dark to lean back and shut your eyes for 15 minutes.

Sleeping is kinda like going to the bathroom in that you need a few fixtures and some privacy. All that is needed is someway to recline with your feet up (typically better for naps than lying directly down anyway) with some privacy. That's probably reasonable to ask for as long as its during the time you already get for a break.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#64

Post by jnbiche »

pc86 wrote: post #37
jnbiche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40-hour work week Where in the software industry are you working a 40-hour week? Outside of government, I've never heard of a programming job that consistently limits employees to 40-hour weeks.

Working overtime is the exception, not the rule. Maybe not in change-the-world Capitalization-as-a-Service SV, but in the majority of the places I've worked you are expecting to work your 8 hours a day and leave. Some even view a lot of overtime as a negative sign since you can't finish your full-time work in a full-time schedule.

Can you name the industry vertical, please? I'm genuinely curious.

By the way, working overtime is not viewed as a negative when quite literally everyone around you (mostly 20-year olds with no family) is working 60+ hours/week. Quite the opposite. And no, this was no start-up.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#65

Post by jnbiche »

forgetsusername wrote: post #36
AndrewDucker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finance industry, UK. 35 hour weeks. With spikes to more, of course, when vital. But only when there's a regulatory deadline, or something has gone seriously wrong.

> With spikes to more, of course, when vital Not doubting your situation, but pretty much every job I've had has told me, "40 hours, unless it's vital!", followed by much apparently "vital" work. That said, I can't believe the OP isn't trolling. Asking for a nap at work because you're taking on too much extra work after-hours?

> Not doubting your situation, but pretty much every job I've had has told me, "40 hours, unless it's vital!", followed by much apparently "vital" work.

Thank you, I was beginning to think there was a gigantic industry conspiracy against me and my friends, while the rest of you are off sipping martinis at 5 p.m.

That said, I can readily believe the 40/hour week situation is different in Europe. However, on average, European developers do get paid significantly less than N. American developers, so it's not like everything is totally equal here.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#66

Post by jnbiche »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #32
jnbiche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40-hour work week Where in the software industry are you working a 40-hour week? Outside of government, I've never heard of a programming job that consistently limits employees to 40-hour weeks.

Finance industry, UK. 35 hour weeks. With spikes to more, of course, when vital. But only when there's a regulatory deadline, or something has gone seriously wrong.

I'm intrigued, particularly since the finance industry in the US has given me the (uninformed) impression that extreme overtime is routine. But maybe that's among traders more than back office developers or quants.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#67

Post by [deleted] »

jnbiche wrote: post #19
peterkelly wrote: post #16

You: "Hey, you know that 40-hour work week we have in order to give us enough time for rest and relaxation?" Boss: "Yep. What about it?" You: "So instead of getting enough sleep at night I've been using that time to take on lots of extra paid work for other companies. To make up for it, can you give me time off to sleep at work?" Boss: ಠ_ಠ

> 40-hour work week Where in the software industry are you working a 40-hour week? Outside of government, I've never heard of a programming job that consistently limits employees to 40-hour weeks.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#68

Post by jasonkester »

jnbiche wrote: post #19
peterkelly wrote: post #16

You: "Hey, you know that 40-hour work week we have in order to give us enough time for rest and relaxation?" Boss: "Yep. What about it?" You: "So instead of getting enough sleep at night I've been using that time to take on lots of extra paid work for other companies. To make up for it, can you give me time off to sleep at work?" Boss: ಠ_ಠ

> 40-hour work week Where in the software industry are you working a 40-hour week? Outside of government, I've never heard of a programming job that consistently limits employees to 40-hour weeks.

You get what you negotiate for yourself. I've worked something like four weeks of more than 40 hours in the last ten years.

My last gig I averaged around 36 hours/week for the first few years, then dropped down to four day weeks for the next couple years, bringing me down to 28-30 hour weeks most of the time.

I'm sure they would have been happy to have me bill more hours. But at the end of the day it's your choice. If you want to work sane hours, you certainly can.

(Edit to stave off the obvious followup: US citizen, US companies. Contracting/Consulting)

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#69

Post by pc86 »

jnbiche wrote: post #64
pc86 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working overtime is the exception, not the rule. Maybe not in change-the-world Capitalization-as-a-Service SV, but in the majority of the places I've worked you are expecting to work your 8 hours a day and leave. Some even view a lot of overtime as a negative sign since you can't finish your full-time work in a full-time schedule.

Can you name the industry vertical, please? I'm genuinely curious. By the way, working overtime is not viewed as a negative when quite literally everyone around you (mostly 20-year olds with no family) is working 60+ hours/week. Quite the opposite. And no, this was no start-up.

I've worked in healthcare, finance, logistics, and consulting in a technical capacity and healthcare and politics in a non-technical capacity. Both the non-tech jobs expected 60+ hours a week (politics considerably more). Only with the logistics programming job was I regularly asked to work past 5 or over a weekend.
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