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Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

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Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#51

Post by balabaster »

I'd say that's completely unreasonable and here's why:

I pay you to do a job that provides value to my company. You're not providing that value while you're sleeping. You can have nap time, but I'm not paying you to nap. As a coder and software architect myself, I understand that it takes a fresh mind to deliver your best work so I understand the need for sleep and you should have as much as you need - but I'm paying you to do a job, not sleep. You sleep on your own dime, not mine. If you're not coming to work fresh enough to provide what we agreed to when you accepted the job, then why are you still coming to work?

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#52

Post by actionwords »

LukeB_UK wrote: post #23
jnbiche wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 40-hour work week Where in the software industry are you working a 40-hour week? Outside of government, I've never heard of a programming job that consistently limits employees to 40-hour weeks.

Depends what country you live in. I'm in the UK and 40 hour or less weeks are extremely common.

aaaand that's why the ship in the uk has set sail.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#53

Post by balabaster »

joshmanders wrote: post #46
koder2016 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny part is that your expectation is probably "I get the legitimate 1 hour of work instead of them taking a nap" but the reality is "I get 4-5 hours of poor quality work after lunch due to lack of nap" .

So wouldn't the answer to this be not to give them paid naps, but to eliminate the reason they need the nap in the first place? Most people take on side work because they don't make enough at their day job. So maybe re-evaluate their compensation and maybe raise it a bit?

This is a never ending cycle of people chasing more and more money. If you're paying them fair market value for the area, then there's little point in giving them a pay rise for asking for a nap because they're tired. Chances are, they're chasing contract gigs because they have their own interests in the work or they just see the dollar signs - I know I do it... but I also know that come 10pm I'm wasted and have to hit the hay to start it all at 6am again the next day.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#54

Post by balabaster »

pc86 wrote: post #42
hobs wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I particularly endorse the idea, but what if it was shown to unambiguously produce a better product? At that point, are you not arguing what you perceive to be a moral issue, not one of producing value for your clients? http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/america-its-ti...

Why not just work split shifts then? 8-12 and 4-8, if you want to nap in the middle that's your prerogative. The issue is paying the employee to sleep .

But then they'll just jam another contract in that 4 hours... they won't sleep.

The issue isn't paying the employee to sleep, that's just a symptom of the real issue:

The issue is poor time and resource management or poor setting of client expectations on the part of the employee. They're not setting expectations well enough to manage their time and get the sleep they need to do the job they agreed to do when they were hired.

So realistically, if they're not doing the job we contractually agreed to, this should be disciplinary. If you're not living the life you need to meet the contractual obligation you agreed to, we need to review, renegotiate or cancel the contract. I don't care what you do outside of what I'm paying you to do, but if it's impacting your ability to do what I hired you for, then we need to talk - because I need someone that does what I need them to for us to get paid, if we're not getting paid, how long do you think I'm going to be able to afford to pay you?

I have budgets, product quality, deadlines and client expectations to manage as well. We're a team, if anyone on that team aren't able to function for the good of the team, then that needs to be fixed accordingly.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#57

Post by jerf »

koder2016 wrote: post #11
chriscampbell wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail on the head. I can not imagine reacting any other way if an engineer on my team asked for nap time.

The funny part is that your expectation is probably "I get the legitimate 1 hour of work instead of them taking a nap" but the reality is "I get 4-5 hours of poor quality work after lunch due to lack of nap" .

Make sure to keep the context here. HN on occasion discusses napping at work and nap policies, and the discussion is usually pretty sensible.

This, however, is basically "Should my employer give me a benefit because I'm tired from working for other people?", which is, well, let me settle for "definitely not the same question".

In this case you can make a strong case that the employer in question isn't so much on the hook for providing nap time, but justified in firing you for not being able to keep up your end of the bargain because of your choices.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#58

Post by pc86 »

balabaster wrote: post #54
pc86 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just work split shifts then? 8-12 and 4-8, if you want to nap in the middle that's your prerogative. The issue is paying the employee to sleep .

But then they'll just jam another contract in that 4 hours... they won't sleep. The issue isn't paying the employee to sleep, that's just a symptom of the real issue: The issue is poor time and resource management or poor setting of client expectations on the part of the employee. They're not setting expectations well enough to manage their time and get the sleep they need to do the job they agreed to do when they we…

I agree in the OP's case this is a disciplinary issue. I would argue it's cause for termination but I imagine that's a minority opinion here.

I was referring to hobs's suggestion that a mid-day nap increase employee productivity and work quality. That may very well be the case but I still wouldn't pay employees to nap in the middle of the day.

Re: Ask HN: Should engineering jobs have a nap time?

#59

Post by edoceo »

You are burning the candle at both ends and need to own your own problems since you created them.

That said, I give the folks on my team an hour per day for "stuff". Reading blogs, exploring the new-shiny JS framework or nap if you want. Devs absolutely need free space in their mind to let the subconscious solve problems. Its art and science - art needs room and science needs focus.

Trying to do too much leaves you doing less, with poor quality, which just piles up escaped defects and adds pressure.

You have to go slow to go fast

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