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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#141

Post by eru »

sjmulder wrote: post #63
2bitencryption wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fun fact: when TD-Gammon hit the backgammon scene in the 90's, it didn't just defeat the top level human pros, it shattered the whole metagame and changed how humans play the game. It could be that human vs human go will look very different in the future due to what AlphaGo has learned and can teach us.

Can you recommend any reading about this that’s approachable for someone who has only a shallow understanding of the game?

For Backgammon, just search for the paper on TD-Gammon.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#142

Post by hasenj »

jknz wrote: post #18

The next person that will beat alphaGo may not be a top go player. In particular, I'm wondering if a computer scientist with access to the alphaGo source code and all the weights of the network could trick alphaGo in order to win games automatically (cf. the papers that show a neural net can be tricked to classify a plane as any other class). If a human with the knowledge of the source code and the weights can do thi…

Just let it play against itself. certainly one side will lose.

Though I wonder if something emerges. For example, black always wins, or, black always wins from a certain opening position.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#143

Post by EliRivers »

florianletsch wrote: post #117
vedaprodarte wrote: post #109

A question: Should we take it as "a computer beating a human" or "developers beating a Go player"? I had this discussion with my friends and we have opposite opinions.

It should be "a computer beating the human" in my opinion. It's just like parents bathing in the success of their offspring. Yes, they can be proud, but no, they didn't achieve the "win" themselves.

If the developers behind AlphaGo did the same calculations with pen and paper as they sat across from the human player, would that be them achieving the win themselves? If so, why does having an automated piece of paper change that?

"It's just like parents bathing in the success of their offspring."

There is no offspring here. There is a set of calculations, written by some people.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#146

Post by hasenj »

pushrax wrote: post #3

If AlphaGo wins all 5 matches, what do you think DeepMind will do with it? My intuition is that they won't continue development, and instead focus on other applications. Great game btw, a pleasure to watch.

I would want to see a longer game where a team of professionals play against AlphaGo, just to test its limits.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#147

Post by eru »

lmm wrote: post #128
pushrax wrote: post #3

If AlphaGo wins all 5 matches, what do you think DeepMind will do with it? My intuition is that they won't continue development, and instead focus on other applications. Great game btw, a pleasure to watch.

They'll keep using the technology. They probably won't want to play Go again - they'll have little to gain and everything to lose - and I suspect most of the possible audience will lose interest.

I'd bet they'll probably continue playing. They are not using any special purpose hardware, and they already have the software.

However, they won't make it such a big PR focus. (And even if they stop, other people will implement the same ideas.)

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#148

Post by webscalist »

Cookingboy wrote: post #116

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

AlphaGo did paradigm shifting moves.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#149

Post by kotach »

pavelrub wrote: post #134
davelondon wrote: post #91

Let's compare Go and Chess. We all know that Go is more complex that Chess, but how much more? There's 10^50 atoms in the planet Earth. That's a lot. Let's put a chess board in each of them. We'll count each possible permutation of each of the chess boards as a separate position. That's a lot, right? There's 10^50 atoms, and 10^40 positions in each chess board so that gives us 10^90 total positions. That's a lot of p…

This doesn't seem to be the main reason why Go is harder than chess for computers. It was noted that even in 9x9 Go, with a comparable branching factor to Chess, traditional Go programs are still no stronger than on big boards. The main difficulty for Go is that it is much harder to evaluate board positions. So in Chess the depth of the search can be significantly reduced by using a reasonable evaluation function, wh…

AlphaGo has a learned evaluation function for each move.

Evaluation function exists but it is not as simple as it can be for chess.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#150

Post by Smaug123 »

Jach wrote: post #87

I may be glad no one took my bet offer of me paying $19 if AlphaGo won 3/5 vs them paying $1 otherwise... I had a prediction at 90% confidence that nothing would show up before the end of this year that would be capable of beating the top players (though since I first heard about MCTS's success the idea of coupling it with deep learning seemed obvious, so I had an unfortunately non-recorded prediction that if a compa…

Re last paragraph: "just slightly stronger" is expected. AlphaGo is designed to maximise its probability of winning, not its margin of victory. You can expect solid not-very-flashy plays that definitely maintain an advantage, rather than even slightly risky plays that probably increase the advantage.
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