Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

gogameguru.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 576 posts

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#91

Post by davelondon »

Let's compare Go and Chess. We all know that Go is more complex that Chess, but how much more?

There's 10^50 atoms in the planet Earth. That's a lot.

Let's put a chess board in each of them. We'll count each possible permutation of each of the chess boards as a separate position. That's a lot, right? There's 10^50 atoms, and 10^40 positions in each chess board so that gives us 10^90 total positions.

That's a lot of positions, but we're not quite there yet.

What we do now is we shrink this planet Earth full of chess board atoms down to the size of an atom itself, and make a whole universe out of these atoms.

So each atom in the universe is a planet Earth, and each atom in this planet Earth is a separate chess board. There's 10^80 atoms in the universe, and 10^90 positions in each of these atoms.

That makes 10^170 positions in total, which is the same as a single Go board.

Chess positions: 10^40 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number) Go positions: 10^170 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_and_mathematics) Atoms in the universe: 10^80 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#Matter_con...) Atoms in the world: 10^50 (http://education.jlab.org/qa/mathatom_05.html)

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#92

Post by kqr »

sago wrote: post #60
forgotpwtomain wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to watch commentary on the DeepMind channel for game #1 and found it to be very un-informative: I recommend the AGA channel (although it's been linked a few times): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZugVil2v4w , still waiting on the game 2 static video.

Yes, the AGA version was better. Unfortunately they aren't broadcasting for the next game on Friday. At least that's what they said.

There's a good reason for that: there is no game on Friday. Next game is Saturday, and they may or may not broadcast that. Andrew is ready, but he needs a pro or otherwise really skilled player to provide high-level commentary. Hyungwan who did it the last two games will not be available.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#93

Post by sgw928 »

bronz wrote: post #55

Who was the GO professional commentator? He was consistently predicting the moves of both Sedol and alphago. I was extremely impressed.

As the only 9p player in the western world, Michael Redmond is of course very impressive.

Chris Garlock, on the other hand, doesn't add that much value to the broadcast. Maybe somebody will start a "Left Commentator" meme, just like Left Shark.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#94

Post by igravious »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #80
igravious wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Last night I found that on the DeepMind channel they were explaining the game a lot for beginners. This was a bit tedious for me but then this is a historic event so there'll be noobs tuning in so I can understand that, and I appreciate that the TV people are thinking of them. Also, the AGA channel you just seem to have a split screen showing two people with headphones on talking over Skype? (Granted, one…

> Last night I found that on the DeepMind channel they were explaining the game a lot for beginners. Yeah, I think I caught some 15 minutes of this and stopped watching, maybe it got better later? I would have expected them to the introduction for beginners before the start of the real game, and they ended up skipping commentary on what seemed like pretty key choice in the early game to do so. > Also, the AGA channel…

On this I do agree with you :) I found it annoying that there was not more analysis happening in the fuseki. I was like, "is it not important to be evaluating these moves?" I guess because the DeepMind crew didn't it meant that beyond pointing out that Lee Sedol tried to break out of opening patterns quickly and that the order of moves in the top-right joseki were considered sub-optimal for AlphaGo there was not much that urgently needed commenting on.

I switched to KGS at intervals to see what people were saying on the mirrored board kibitz. And the DeepMind commentary did begin to irritate at times but I feel they had to cater for noobs. Once the middle game got going it was fine though. Agreed on the KGS virtual board.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#95

Post by arethuza »

derefr wrote: post #82
kqr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the source now, but I remember reading a while ago that a team of go players is, perhaps contrary to intuition, not significantly better than their strongest individual alone. There's just no useful way to "pool" human thinking power and redistribute it to where it's needed the most – all the players will simultaneously consider the same branches. At best you reduce the risk of making a silly mistake, bu…

> all the players will simultaneously consider the same branches A computer-assisted pool of humans might work. Feed each human a board state advanced by 1/2/3/N moves down the decision tree in some direction, and have them evaluate that particular sub-tree. It's a map-reduce problem!

For some reason this made me think of the Focused in A Deepness in the Sky - where real general AI isn't possible [at least where we are] so human minds are harnessed to solve problems in a deeply unpleasant way.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#96

Post by GolDDranks »

0x777 wrote: post #23
zodiac wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it ensured that this is a fair game given the time constraints? Both players get the same time controls, seems fair to me But if you're saying humans might fare better against computers in a game with a longer time control, I suspect that's true

With longer time controls, wouldn't the human element of 'coming under pressure' has little effect?

Actually, Fan Hui 2p, the European master was able to win agains AlphaGo in an unofficial "Speed Go" (30 seconds per move) tournament.

It seems that additional time might actually work _against_ humans and for AlphaGo.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#97

Post by Jach »

sidko wrote: post #73
imron wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how long before humans start learning from AlphaGo! I want to see AlphaGo vs AlphaGo :-)

Seeing the way chess computers have evolved, this won't be far into the future. There are several tournaments just for chess computers, and it is very hard even for grandmasters to follow every more. Somehow, after a 20-move sequence that appears to accomplish nothing, one side is slightly up, and the rest of the game is decided.

There's been a big annual Go computer cup for a while now, it's been fun to read about: http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/index.html Of interest this year is Facebook's new bot is competing, which employs the same strategy as AlphaGo (Deep nets with MCTS), but from what I remember they've said (they've been a lot more open about its performance, you could even play a version on KGS, though I did really like AlphaGo's paper) it's quite a bit weaker. However I suspect it's also running on a lot less computer power, and that it will still be a while before you can get AlphaGo or better performance from a mere modest gaming rig let alone a standard laptop.

One benefit of programs like AlphaGo eventually becoming available to individuals is that we'll see a rise in some incredibly strong young players that leave their ancestors in the dust, as I think has happened with Chess via Magnus. For the amount of training that can only be done by playing more and more games, being able to do that against a computer will be a lot more efficient.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#98

Post by jules »

sgw928 wrote: post #93
bronz wrote: post #55

Who was the GO professional commentator? He was consistently predicting the moves of both Sedol and alphago. I was extremely impressed.

As the only 9p player in the western world, Michael Redmond is of course very impressive. Chris Garlock, on the other hand, doesn't add that much value to the broadcast. Maybe somebody will start a "Left Commentator" meme, just like Left Shark.

It would be great if his co-commentator was a computer scientist who is knowledgeable about AlphaGo's algorithm.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#99

Post by sgw928 »

Confusion wrote: post #16
makoz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people in the Go community wants to see AlphaGo play against the top ranked player. Otherwise I hope they'd at the very least release it as an AI for people to play against.

I thought Lee Sedol was the top ranked player?

Lee is widely considered the greatest player of the last decade, winning 18 world titles, but has been surpassed in the last few years by younger players, with this unofficial ELO rating system ranking him at No.4: http://www.goratings.org/. Go is really a young man's game right now.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#100

Post by pmontra »

Does anybody know how many CPUs and GPUs they're using this time? It was 1200+ and 700+ in October against Fan Hui. It would be interesting to know if AlphaGo became better only because the extra learning or also because of extra hardware. I googled for that and didn't find anything but I could have missed the right source.
Post reply on HN