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The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

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Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#11

Post by ntumlin »

md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

I don't think it's so bad, and more importantly I don't see the solution. Google does what it does to make money, and ads are how it does that. If there's a more ethical solution it'll only be implemented if it's also more profitable. All that is fine with me; Google doesn't have any obligations to me or you or anyone besides their shareholders.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#12

Post by zabuni »

md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

Because limiting what order a person puts links on a website, or what their content is, gets pretty quickly into free speech issues?

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#13

Post by zabuni »

manachar wrote: post #5

This read like anti-Google FUD. The basic argument is search engine rank determines trustworthiness of a source. This influences people's opinions on politics, what they buy, what they think, etc. This is absolutely true, and the core of their research (it seems). But then it goes into FUD territory when talking about Google backing Hillary. Hillary and Trump have received the lion's share of attention in media, soci…

Also, the man has an ax to grind:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/one-mans-fight-with...

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#14

Post by ska »

md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

   Why are we letting money influence the salience of information?
Because it's the only practical and effective way anyone has every come up with of building such a system?

This isn't a comment on the ethical nature - just that I don't believe there was any point where you could choose between commercial drivers to the growth of the "information system", and any other approach that would have resulted in similar growth. If the commercial explosion on the web hadn't happened, we wouldn't have anything like the same scope as we do now. For good or ill.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#15

Post by md224 »

zabuni wrote: post #12
md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

Because limiting what order a person puts links on a website, or what their content is, gets pretty quickly into free speech issues?

I'm not saying Google shouldn't be allowed to do what it does. I'm just saying what it does seems fundamentally unethical.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#16

Post by md224 »

ska wrote: post #14
md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

Why are we letting money influence the salience of information? Because it's the only practical and effective way anyone has every come up with of building such a system? This isn't a comment on the ethical nature - just that I don't believe there was any point where you could choose between commercial drivers to the growth of the "information system", and any other approach that would have resulted in similar growth…

Ah, the "Omelas" bargain. Fair enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om...

It sucks that the idea of funding Google via taxes is anathema to so many because people fear government influence. So basically we're stuck between government influence and monetary influence. I wish there was a third way that we could crowdfund a platform without making it beholden to any specific set of donors.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#17

Post by r0m4n0 »

The internet is just a new medium to persuade opinions just as the many before it. Most people don't even know who represents them apart from what's talked about in the news. This study required people to actually browse through this fake search engine. I'm not convinced many people do any research whatsoever (beyond the top of the ballot).

Does this "search engine manipulation effect" have an impact on top of the ballot votes? We still don't know. Does it have an impact on everyone else on your ballot? Nope.

Disclosure... I am the founder of a company that builds a tool for organizations to blatantly tell people who to vote for...

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#18

Post by guelo »

This is a really interesting study but it's hard for me to believe in the conspiracy theory that the hundreds of engineers that work on Google Search would be OK implementing a complicated vote manipulation algorithm and keeping it secret. But it's possible, criminal conspiracies involving many people seem to happen regularly in the financial industry.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#20

Post by pcmaffey »

md224 wrote: post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

The library is a catalog of books produced by publishers for the sake of making money. Your example doesn't hold weight, as there is no "purity of information". Even your own insights are filtered through the perspective of your personal influence, your wants, your desires, your history, etc.

Google is no different. The organic search results are largely from commercial, or at a minimum, self-interested sources.

That doesn't make it wrong. There's huge value there. Just the same, money is not evil. It's a mechanism for storing value. It's imperfect, and abused, and certainly not the only measurement of value. Keeping those value systems in balance is the key.

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