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AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

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Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#251

Post by gearhart »

narrator wrote: post #121

The funny thing about AI at this scale is we don't really know why the computer does what it does. It's more of a inductive extrapolation that we can verify that a technique works for a small problem, so we'll throw a whole bunch of GPU power and data at it and it SHOULD work for a big problem. How it actually works is fuzzy though as there's just a couple of gigabytes of floats representing weights in neural network…

It certainly seems incomprehensible now, but that isn't necessarily true in neural networks - the amazing thing about some of the experiments using the results of intermediate layers in image recognition is that they seem to be building up higher and higher order "understanding" as you get to deeper and deeper layers which correlates directly with how a human might explain their strategy.

You can imagine a means of interpreting intermediate layers of alphago's weighting function similar to the second image in [1] (not the best example, I apologise) that would produce images or other abstract representations of the strategy that layer was encoding, similar to how a human might classify moves or patterns into categories.

[1] http://cs231n.github.io/convolutional-networks/

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#252

Post by ccvannorman »

reference: SGF file on OGS: https://online-go.com/demo/114161

To my untrained eye, AlphaGo was already way ahead by move 29 in the match tonight with black having a weak group in the upper side, while black wasted a lot of moves on the right side as white kept pushing (Q13, Q12), which white erased later because those pushes were 4th line for black and the area was too big too control. Black never had a chance to recover this bad fight. After those reductions and invasion on right side white came back to the 3-3 at C17 which feels like solidified the win.

Some people are asking what was the losing move for Lee Sedol? I wanted to joke and say "the first one.." but maybe R8 was too conservative being away from the urgent upper side where white started all the damage.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#253

Post by versteegen »

tunesmith wrote: post #50

I watched the commentary that Michael Redmond gave (9-dan-professional) and he didn't point out one obvious mistake that Lee Sedol made the entire match. Just really high quality play by AlphaGo. Really amazing moment to see Lee Sedol resign by putting one of his opponent's stones on the board.

According to Myungwan Kim, 9p, commenting on the game in the AGA channel [1], Lee Sedol made a mistake right at the beginning and spent the rest of the game hoping to claw it back; he said he would resign about 15 min before he did.

EDIT: but this postmortem [2] of the game is far more nuanced and doesn't reach the same conclusion.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZugVil2v4w [2] https://gogameguru.com/alphago-defeats-lee-sedol-game-1/

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#254

Post by chronolitus »

exDM69 wrote: post #186
taneq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a proof-of-concept. What they've proved is that the same kind of intelligence required to play Go can be implemented with computer hardware. Before now, software couldn't beat a ranked human player at Go no matter how much computing power we threw at it . Now we can. Give it ten years and, between algorithmic optimizations and advances in processing, you'll have an unbeatable Go app on your phone.

> Give it ten years and, between algorithmic optimizations and advances in processing, you'll have an unbeatable Go app on your phone. I find this overly optimistic because of the huge amount of power required to run the Go application. Remember, we're getting closer and closer to the theoretical lower limit in the size of silicon chips, which is around 4nm (that's about a dozen silicon atoms). That's a 3-4x improvem…

How many watts does Lee Sedol's brain require?

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#255

Post by stymaar »

peteretep wrote: post #246
exDM69 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do elaborate. I try to base my assumptions (which I accept may turn out to be completely wrong) on physics and experience in working in semiconductors. I just don't see a 1000x+ decrease in the power required happening in a decade or two without some revolutionary technology I can't even imagine. Is this what you meant? I'm sure most people couldn't imagine modern silicon chips in the 1950s vacuum tube era. Bu…

> physics and experience in working in semiconductors > without some revolutionary technology I can't even > imagine I suspect (in the nicest possible way) that in a lineup of your imagination (on current assumptions) vs the combined ingenuiety of the human race driven by the hidden hand, the latter wins.

> > Give it ten years and […]

> I find this overly optimistic

exDM69 never said it's not gonna happen, he just said that it's not going to happen in ten years, and I agree with him. Revolutions never occurs that quickly. To achieve that we don't just need an improvement of the current state of the art, we need a massive change and we don't even know what it's going to look like yet ! This kind of revolution may occur one day but not in ten year.

And it could even never happen, remember that we don't have flying cars yet ;)

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#257

Post by jules »

ragebol wrote: post #235
jules wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. Why would you want to put human limitations on the computer? We don't artificially put computer limitations on the human.

I don't want to put a limit on the computer, not at all. But I do think humans have an edge on computer because at least for now, humans can learn the same skills from less samples (at least in this example: Go) Of course, if there are many samples, the computer can go through those faster, but if there are no samples already and the computer has to learn example by example as humans do as well, humans may still have…

How do you count examples? The computer can generate its own examples by playing against itself. So in theory it needs 0 examples. This is not a useful metric at all.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#258

Post by JabavuAdams »

talles wrote: post #249
esturk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never felt playing against what is suppose to be an entire room of machines (wether Deep Blue or Watson) to be fair. What would be fair is to limit the total mass of the computer to say 200kg and leave it at that. What is effectively happening is AlphaGo is running on a distributed system of many, many machines. Even Watson took an entire room. Google is paying a premium to push AlphaGo to win.

Are you suggesting to measure computing power by kilograms? That's even stupider than measuring software complexity by LOC.

It's not obviously stupid, as a bounding argument as we approach physical limits.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#259

Post by ramblerman »

esturk wrote: post #24
sethbannon wrote: post #7

I was at the 2003 match of Garry Kasparov vs Deep Junior -- the strongest chess player of all time vs what was at that point the strongest chess playing computer in history. Kasparov drew that match, but it was clear it was the last stand of homo sapiens in the man vs machine chess battle. Back then, people took solace in the game of Go. Many boldly and confidently predicted we wouldn't see a computer beat the Go wor…

I've never felt playing against what is suppose to be an entire room of machines (wether Deep Blue or Watson) to be fair. What would be fair is to limit the total mass of the computer to say 200kg and leave it at that. What is effectively happening is AlphaGo is running on a distributed system of many, many machines. Even Watson took an entire room. Google is paying a premium to push AlphaGo to win.

What a strange sentiment. You would only delay the inevitable outcome. Sure, it wouldn't win now, but processing power will become stronger and machines get smaller. What was the point?

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#260

Post by JabavuAdams »

awwducks wrote: post #21
dwaltrip wrote: post #8

This is my generation's Gary Kasparov vs. Deep Blue. In many ways, it is more significant. Several top commentators were saying how AlphaGo has improved noticeably since October. AlphaGo's victory tonight marks the moment that go is no longer a human dominated contest. It was a very exciting game, incredible level of play. I really enjoyed watching it live with the expert commentary. I recommend the AGA youtube chann…

Yep, terrific commentary by Myungwan Kim 9p on the AGA channel. For the folks who aren't as familiar with the game, how did you find the commentary (for any channel)? What would you be interested in hearing for events like these?

I don't know much about go, so it was like a long Go lesson. That was interesting, but in terms of immediate gratification it was pretty dull. One very calm hyper-focused person describing what another very calm hyper-focused person is doing.
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