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AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

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Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#71

Post by brian_cloutier »

panic wrote: post #48
Eliezer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an improved tree search. Deepmind was almost pro level purely using the deep learning network before doing any Monte Carlo search. One way of looking at the significance of this is that it might tell us that relatively simple machine learning algorithms can capture key aspects of the versatile human cortical capacity to learn things like Go using sheer pattern recognition. (It's amazing that human visual cor…

Regardless of how good the deep learning network is on its own, the algorithm described in the DeepMind paper is an improved tree search.

Forest for the trees.

Monte Carlo Tree Search was necessary and itself a massive improvement over minimax but not sufficient for creating a Go program to challenge professional players. The true innovation here is the neural networks. Without those networks to guide it AlphaGo plays far worse than existing programs.

The fact that those networks are sufficient is pretty incredible. We already knew that by inventing them we had created a very pure form of pattern recognition, but it's surprising that the pattern recognition coupled with some tree search seems to be all you need to play Go as well as humans.

It's not impressive to you that we've now reproduced a piece of human intelligence, "intuition", which was previously considered out of reach?

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#72

Post by lololomg »

simonh wrote: post #61
21 wrote: post #12

The thing that was supposed to take at least 10 years happened. Only last month people were still saying that no way AlphaGo will beat the champion and that it will be crushed. Today everybody will have seen it coming and say that it was normal. Yet people will still tell that worrying about AI taking over is like worrying about overpopulation on Mars, and that this is a problem at least 50 years out.

Highly optimised single-function algorithms like this are impressive stuff and can lead to useful tools, but that's it. This gets us no closer to strong AI than a tic tac toe program. Until we have systems that can tackle a wide range of fundamentally different problems and independently adapt strategies for dealing with one class of problems to deal with other classes of problems, systems like Alphago will remain on…

'True AI will always be defined as anything a computer can not yet do'

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#73

Post by [deleted] »

agildehaus wrote: post #59
esturk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never felt playing against what is suppose to be an entire room of machines (wether Deep Blue or Watson) to be fair. What would be fair is to limit the total mass of the computer to say 200kg and leave it at that. What is effectively happening is AlphaGo is running on a distributed system of many, many machines. Even Watson took an entire room. Google is paying a premium to push AlphaGo to win.

Has Google talked about the amount of computing resources they're throwing at this match? I'd be very interested to know.

[deleted]

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#74

Post by zamalek »

taneq wrote: post #35
esturk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never felt playing against what is suppose to be an entire room of machines (wether Deep Blue or Watson) to be fair. What would be fair is to limit the total mass of the computer to say 200kg and leave it at that. What is effectively happening is AlphaGo is running on a distributed system of many, many machines. Even Watson took an entire room. Google is paying a premium to push AlphaGo to win.

It's a proof-of-concept. What they've proved is that the same kind of intelligence required to play Go can be implemented with computer hardware. Before now, software couldn't beat a ranked human player at Go no matter how much computing power we threw at it . Now we can. Give it ten years and, between algorithmic optimizations and advances in processing, you'll have an unbeatable Go app on your phone.

Indeed. The first time a computer defeated a human in Chess it was this[1] size (1997). In 2009 it became possible to fit a grandmaster into this[2].

> Pocket Fritz 4 won the Copa Mercosur tournament in Buenos Aires, Argentina with 9 wins and 1 draw on August 4–14, 2009. Pocket Fritz 4 searches fewer than 20,000 positions per second. This is in contrast to supercomputers such as Deep Blue that searched 200 million positions per second. Pocket Fritz 4 achieves a higher performance level than Deep Blue.[3]

The first steps are always the most inefficient. Make it work, make it right, make it fast.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_%28chess_computer%29... [2]: http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/htc_touc... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_chess_m...

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#75

Post by Eliezer »

simonh wrote: post #61
21 wrote: post #12

The thing that was supposed to take at least 10 years happened. Only last month people were still saying that no way AlphaGo will beat the champion and that it will be crushed. Today everybody will have seen it coming and say that it was normal. Yet people will still tell that worrying about AI taking over is like worrying about overpopulation on Mars, and that this is a problem at least 50 years out.

Highly optimised single-function algorithms like this are impressive stuff and can lead to useful tools, but that's it. This gets us no closer to strong AI than a tic tac toe program. Until we have systems that can tackle a wide range of fundamentally different problems and independently adapt strategies for dealing with one class of problems to deal with other classes of problems, systems like Alphago will remain on…

In case you're not aware, AlphaGo's key component is based on the same type of Deepmind system that learned to play dozens of Atari games, to superhuman levels, by watching the pixels, without any programmatic adaptation to the particular Atari game. At least the version of AlphaGo that played in October was far less specialized for Go than Deep Blue was for chess. Demis Hassabis says that next up after this is getting Deepmind to play Go without any programmatic specialization for Go. Your reply would be appropriate if we were talking about Deep Blue, chess, and 1997.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#76

Post by ankurdhama »

What this actually means is that "the approach" AlphaGo team developed to "computationally" play Go, which is an computationally intractable problem, will be very useful in other computationally intractable problems. The media is going to get crazy without understanding what actually happened. If you are going very hysteric over this and thinking that robots are going to take over then please try this:- Before the start of the game add/remove/update any rules of the game and tell both the players - the human and computer - at the start of the game about new rules and lets see who wins.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#77

Post by atemerev »

studentrob wrote: post #57
bencoder wrote: post #27

I was really expecting Lee Sedol to win here. I'm very excited, and congratulations to the DeepMind team, but I'm a bit sad about the result, as a go player and as a human.

If it's any consolation, there are still tons of things humans are far better at than machines.

The only remaining are language-related. Natural languages are the next focal point of AI research.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#78

Post by Eliezer »

Teodolfo wrote: post #38
21 wrote: post #12

The thing that was supposed to take at least 10 years happened. Only last month people were still saying that no way AlphaGo will beat the champion and that it will be crushed. Today everybody will have seen it coming and say that it was normal. Yet people will still tell that worrying about AI taking over is like worrying about overpopulation on Mars, and that this is a problem at least 50 years out.

Many of the people saying not to worry ALSO predicted AlphaGo. So let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Citation needed.]

I for one did not say to not worry, and I bet $1500 vs. $2250 on Sedol winning the match before getting cold feet and arbing my outstanding bets down to $400 vs. $700.

Re: AlphaGo beats the world champion Lee Sedol in first of five matches

#79

Post by riffraff »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #65
onion2k wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet people will still tell that worrying about AI taking over is like worrying about overpopulation on Mars, and that this is a problem at least 50 years out. As hard as writing AI for a problem space like "how to win at Go" is, it's several orders of magnitude easier than creating a general AI with the self-awareness required to see us as a threat.

The interesting thing is that this algorithm taught itself to master the game. If you're writing a chess engine, you just "write the AI for the problem space" in a few dozen lines of code, as you put it, and let brute force do the rest. In the case of DeepMind, faced with a game where a traversal approach is numerically impossible, its programmers gave it the ability to improve by playing against itself. That's the d…

it is a big deal, but it is still very different from general AI, and we are very good at underestimating complexity.

Remember that "solve computer vision" was considered a summer project.

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