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Business School is a Joke

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Re: Business School is a Joke

#21
I just recently graduated from a top undergraduate b-school program. As an entrepreneur, I don't see anything that enticing about going back to get an MBA. Even if I was accepted into a top tier program. Why you ask?

Well, I am going to provide a very subjective opinion here, but would love to get some responses...

Most top ranked MBA programs cater to those who want to do one of 4 things after they graduate:

1. Become an Associate/VP in Private Equity 2. Become an Associate/VP in a Hedge Fund/Trading 3. Become an Associate in Management Consulting 4. Become a corporate executive

Now an MBA has some real benefit for those entering these fields and there is nothing wrong there. If you're an entrepreneur, I don't really see the added benefit of getting an MBA. Most of the knowledge obtained in the coursework can be learned through experience or just by picking up some literature (see "The 10-day MBA" by Steven Silbiger). From many seasoned entrepreneurs I've spoken with, an MBA limits the time you could be spending starting your business (unless you can start while in your program like Jerry Yang or Sergey/Larry)

There is an advantage through networking with other like-minded entrepreneurs in your program and using the school's resources, but it pretty much stops there.

The one exception I would make for an MBA program really benefiting the entrepreneur is hands down...Stanford.

Stanford has the proximity to the Valley and also the roster of success stories (yahoo, google, HP, Cisco, Sun) but it's real value is that it serves as an ad-hoc incubator for start-up innovation. Just take a minute and subscribe to the free podcasts from the STVP (Stanford Technology Ventures Program) on itunes and you'll get an idea of why Stanford seems to be the only program that values entrepreneurship.

If anyone can think of other MBA programs that help entrepreneurs, I would like to hear about them.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#22
"Mandatory group work ... teaches kids how to assign tasks to people who aren’t capable of doing them, how to schedule wasteful meetings to re-format and explain individuals’ work, and how to make bad and inconsistent PowerPoint presentations."

So much group work I had in college started out with "keep meeting with your team". It was all just an exercise in seeing how much time we could waste in pointless meetings. Of course when I tried to delegate work, so we could actually accomplish things and waste less time in meetings, some silly girl tattle taled on me saying: "Jason doesn't want us to meet enough".

Re: Business School is a Joke

#23
An undergraduate degree in this country teaches you how to become a worker bee. If you like being a worker bee, getting a decent(?) salary, taking 2 weeks and then later in life maybe 6 weeks vacation, by all means study business, marketing, etc. Otherwise, get educated.

"Self education is, I firmly believe, the only kid of education there is." -Isaac Asimov

If only we could have a few more people every year become free thinkers and creators.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#24
A school like Michigan draws from kids whose high school experience may be quite varied; as a result most intro classes are extremely slow, memorization intensive, and focus on very crude sorts of assignments and testing.

When these sorts of classes are used as admissions criteria for special programs (such as the BBA) you end up with a huge amount of competitiveness even though the material is easy.

The inevitable consequence of this is a lot of busy work, etc., so that some students eventually stand out as having done a better job at learning easy material and can be awarded the prize (admission to the BBA program, etc.).

I was shocked by the phenomenon of students ganging up on the professors to make tests "open note", and other approaches that allow less able students who are willing to use brute force approaches to thrive.

Note: In life, intelligence isn't really all that important, so the students have the right idea and so the rewards they reap for that behavior probably predict future economic rewards.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#25
Having context to put lessons in is very important for effective academic learning (or almost any learning).

For an engineer, learning electrical theory from a text book makes a lot more sense if you have toyed around with an Arduino before.

For an undergraduate business major who may never have seen a P&L statement, let alone put one together, I can see that it would be tough to find the subject useful or engaging. This is why most MBA programs won't consider applicants until they have some industry experience. Academic learning works much better when you have a foundation to build on, and for an undergraduate studying business, it seems it would be easy to become disenfranchised without this foundation.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#27
post #2

For a different point of view. Coming from an engineering background, I sat in on an entrepreneurship class at UChicago Booth and I was totally blown away. The angle was completely different. The previous class the students were all given the details about hypothetical ventures with some background on the market and they were asked to say whether they would invest or not invest should such a proposal cross their desk…

I am studying at a top Master's program in Europe at a Business School and it's oh-so familiar undergraduate or not. I also took a whopping 1 course at the business school during my undergraduate before switching to computer science because it was mind numbingly stupid. The lack of math skills, the type of people it attracts, the teaching style is all accurate for undergraduate. For the master's level I see more motivated and smarter people but the teaching, goals and end result is pretty much the same and leaves so much to be desired.

In one way, it feels nice to know most schools suck just as bad, but in another way it's a shame for humanity that this seems to be the norm.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#28
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

consider that the author's program was an undergraduate program and try to remember how experienced or useful you were at 18-21. This is important. I got an undergrad business degree and I got a nice background in accounting, finance, marketing, and to a lesser extent IT. When I think back on it, either it doesn't seem useful or I've forgotten the useful bits (had some great classes on branding that taught me a lot m…

"On the MBA side -- the MBA program at my alma mater has placed several of my friends in jobs that were a big jump in salary and growth potential from where they were coming in -- and none of them were bankers" But I think this is what the author was trying to say. An MBA (I'll talk about the MBA since undergrad business degrees seem really terrible) is a way of gaming the corporate structure (and getting a raise in…

I think a lot of the comments in this discussion, yours included, seem to be misunderstanding what business school is about.

Business schools are teaching management, which by definition is about reducing risk and optimizing existing operations in a running business, hence the emphasis on accounting, finance, etc. The idea is that looking at the whole picture, an MBA is able to more efficiently manage an existing corporation. The comments made about MBAs seeing people as "tools" is spot on and in recent years the organization behavior subject has made a lot of progress in reversing this damaging trend, started during the industrial revolution.

On the other hand, entrepreneurship is all about taking an invention and turning it into an innovation and a sustainable company, and in the process mitigating various business risks (e.g. is there anyone to buy the product, how to make the product, what product to make, etc.). The two (startups vs. companies) are fundamentally different (I elaborate on this here: http://www.deyanvitanov.com/entrepreneurship-foundations/sta...). Very few business schools make the claim to be catering to the entrepreneurial crowd, and even fewer do it well - I can speak only for Stanford GSB, although I have heard similar for Berkeley and Babson, among others I am sure.

So the comment about talking the talk and walking the walk sounds nice, but the assumptions behind it simply fall flat.

FYI, I have an MBA from Stanford and I am basing my comment on my experience there. At the same time, I came to business school specifically to start a new company, so I am hardly the typical MBA I think.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#29
post #2

For a different point of view. Coming from an engineering background, I sat in on an entrepreneurship class at UChicago Booth and I was totally blown away. The angle was completely different. The previous class the students were all given the details about hypothetical ventures with some background on the market and they were asked to say whether they would invest or not invest should such a proposal cross their desk…

UChicago teaches business differently that basically every business school in the country, so take this anecdote with a grain of salt. The have a quantitative/scientific focus that many other schools lack. Your example shows this perfectly, as the professor presented real data to you instead of fictional data.

On the whole, there is still a large problem with undergraduate degrees in business.

Re: Business School is a Joke

#30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

consider that the author's program was an undergraduate program and try to remember how experienced or useful you were at 18-21. This is important. I got an undergrad business degree and I got a nice background in accounting, finance, marketing, and to a lesser extent IT. When I think back on it, either it doesn't seem useful or I've forgotten the useful bits (had some great classes on branding that taught me a lot m…

"On the MBA side -- the MBA program at my alma mater has placed several of my friends in jobs that were a big jump in salary and growth potential from where they were coming in -- and none of them were bankers" But I think this is what the author was trying to say. An MBA (I'll talk about the MBA since undergrad business degrees seem really terrible) is a way of gaming the corporate structure (and getting a raise in…

They have never run businesses, so how can they teach you how to run one? If they could build or run a multimillion dollar businesses would they be teaching?

Several of the better teachers at my university had consulting gigs on the side where they worked on real world projects that interested them. A few had worked many years in industry and now wanted to do something different. Some genuinely preferred the more theoretical and research aspect of the field and felt that a university was the best place to foster that. And yes a few where useless, could probably never cut in industry and just hung around because for some reason no one had fired them yet.

Conversely, having running a business will teach you many things, but there are other things you can only learn by having studied and carefully analysed and compared hundreds of businesses and the people who work there. So just because you have never run a business yourself doesn't mean you have nothing to teach, and just because you happened to be in charge of a business that happened to successful doesn't mean you know all there is about all aspects of running a company.

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