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Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

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Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#91
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you follow Bayes' theorem. If you start with a prior distribution of beliefs about the likelihood of various ratios of boy vs girl births, the posterior distribution only depends on the observed outcomes. And the posterior distribution is exactly given by Bayes' theorem. One possible source of confusion for you is that Bayesian ideas have been a source of inspiration for a lot of ad hoc techniques (eg naive Ba…

Our goal is to calculate P(pb > 0.5 | "Six girls and one boy"), where pb is the probability of having a boy. (Ignoring that we have already assumed p is fixed), by applying Bayes' Theorem, we have: P(pb > 0.5 | "Six girls and one boy") = (P("Six girls and one boy" | pb > 0.5) * P(pb > 0.5)) / P("Six girls and one boy") Applying Bayes theorem thus requires us to calculate P("Six girls and one boy" | pb > 0.5). How do…

Well first you have to start with a prior distribution of beliefs, which that is not. And to reduce confusion I'll switch back to the actual genders (6 boys then a girl).

Suppose our prior distribution of beliefs is 0.5 that the probability is exactly 1/2, versus 0.5 that the probability of a boy is some value P which is equally likely to be any value from 0 to 1.

In the first case, the probability of 6 boys and 1 girl is 0.5^7 = 1/2^7. In the second case the probability of 6 boys and 1 girl is P^6(1-P) = P^6 - P^7. The integral from 0 to 1 of P^6 - P^7 is 1/6-1/7 = 1/42. Each case also has a priori odds of 1/2 of holding true.

After observing 6 boys and 1 girl, the first case now has probability (0.5/2^7)/(0.5/2^7 + 0.5/42) = 1/(1 + 64/21) = 21/129 = 0.162790697674419. The second case now has probability 1 - this, which is 0.837209302325581. Furthermore if the second case is true, P is no longer uniformly distributed. In fact its density is now proportional to P^6-P^7.

So the posterior distribution is now going to be:

With probability 21/129, exactly 0.5. And otherwise any value P from 0 to 1 with a probability density of 108/129*(P^6-P^7)/42.

Given this prior and this set of observations, any other answer is wrong. Given a different prior you would get a different posterior, but as long as the prior gives a constant probability of male/female, the only fact that matters is how many boys and girls there are.

The order of births can only start to matter if you start with a prior that gives different probabilities of different genders based on prior events. Even then it is hard to come up with a realistic scenario in which the plans of the parents would make an order of magnitude difference in the posterior distribution.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#92

It's not just p-values. Some people just don't understand even very basic statistics. I remember talking to one person in marketing who ran surveys of the company's users. They would send out a survey to all registered users, get back responses from 1% of them or something, and then proceed to report findings based on the responses. They were really happy, since a 1% response rate is great for surveys like this. I tr…

Had an indergrad ecology course to teach me this. The first 4 labs were plug and chug equations sampling a square with computer generated randomly placed dots. All we had to do is get a sample (we could choose the size), and figure out a 95% likelihood that the correct number was within our range. No one could do it for 3 labs, before he told us how. Good samples are REALLY important, even under basically perfect conditions.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#93
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different approaches a Bayesian might take. The one that I described is certainly among them, though it is not the only one.

I think the word "naive" is problematic here. Have you seen instances where Bayesians choose a prior that isn't at least somewhat informed by exploratory analysis?

There is a notion of an uninformative prior [0].

What would you do if you were studying a process that had not been previously studied, so you had no previous experience/data on which to base your a prior? If you wait, and choose a prior based on the data you observe then you are using an empirical Bayes method [1].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_probability#Uninformativ...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_Bayes_method

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our goal is to calculate P(pb > 0.5 | "Six girls and one boy"), where pb is the probability of having a boy. (Ignoring that we have already assumed p is fixed), by applying Bayes' Theorem, we have: P(pb > 0.5 | "Six girls and one boy") = (P("Six girls and one boy" | pb > 0.5) * P(pb > 0.5)) / P("Six girls and one boy") Applying Bayes theorem thus requires us to calculate P("Six girls and one boy" | pb > 0.5). How do…

Well first you have to start with a prior distribution of beliefs, which that is not. And to reduce confusion I'll switch back to the actual genders (6 boys then a girl). Suppose our prior distribution of beliefs is 0.5 that the probability is exactly 1/2, versus 0.5 that the probability of a boy is some value P which is equally likely to be any value from 0 to 1. In the first case, the probability of 6 boys and 1 gi…

But if they are having children until they have one of each, the probability of the different observations does depend on the prior events!

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#95
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different approaches a Bayesian might take. The one that I described is certainly among them, though it is not the only one.

I think the word "naive" is problematic here. Have you seen instances where Bayesians choose a prior that isn't at least somewhat informed by exploratory analysis?

It's quite common to choose a conjugate prior, which aids computation, and which is readily comprehensible within the discipline ("...and a Wishart prior for the covariance, of course..."). But which is, in effect, not at all informed by the data.

It's also common to have a complex, multi-level model setup which has a few hyperparameters (say, gamma distribution shapes) which are set basically arbitrarily. The idea being that the posteriors for the lowest levels (closest to data) will be learned/fitted, but the hyper parameters at the top-level of the model are fixed. This is very common in spatial statistics.

It's also common to make lots of (conditional) independence assumptions, just because they are convenient. Such as diagonal covariances, or conditional independence between "separate" elements of a model. But these independence assumptions are often just convenient or based on intuition, but not re-checked. Or, if they are checked and found wanting, it's "left for future work".

These practices are defensible, and attackable. But choosing convenient priors out of a bag of standard priors, without reference to the problem at hand, is very common.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#96
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but I guess what I'm getting at is frequently we see people doing even worse: making policy decisions based on data that doesn't even hit a minimum threshold for acceptability. I totally agree that people shouldn't make policy decisions solely because the data supports it, but frequently you see people make decisions based on data indicating something without actually being statistically significant. That feel…

> That feels like a bigger problem to me than people actually getting good data but then using it too confidently P value alone does not tell you whether you have good data. It just tells you how well a particular model fits the data that you have. It won't (and can't) tell you if your data set is missing data that would alter the P value were it to be included. P value alone is not enough to say "good" or "bad." Tha…

I'm not sure I agree. If P-value is really low then it implies either the existing data set is bad or your new data set is bad. Either way you haven't used data to get to a confident decision.

Put another way: tons of stuff in prod dev gets done without p-values entirely because it's the first time you have any data at all about something. I'm questioning whether this is hugely valuable and obviously better than using my intuition or not, since we really don't have a good understanding of the baseline.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#97
post #6

I agree as well! Here is what probability theory teaches us. The proper role of data is to adjust our prior beliefs about probabilities to posterior beliefs through Bayes' theorem. The challenge is how to best communicate this result to people who may have had a wide range of prior beliefs. p-values capture a degree of surprise in the result. Naively, a surprising result should catch our attention and cause us to ret…

Simple Bayesian approaches take the opposite approach. You generally start with some relatively naive prior, and then treat the posterior as being the conclusion. Which is not very realistic if the real prior was something quite different. I don't think this is a completely accurate portrayal of Bayesian stats. In Bayesian stats, there is no "real prior". Probability distributions are all subjective representations o…

There is nothing more robust than p-values. The problem is that people call things "p-value of this experiment" when they aren't (for example, they may actually be talking about the "p-value of this other experiment" [which they possibly didn't even perform]).

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well first you have to start with a prior distribution of beliefs, which that is not. And to reduce confusion I'll switch back to the actual genders (6 boys then a girl). Suppose our prior distribution of beliefs is 0.5 that the probability is exactly 1/2, versus 0.5 that the probability of a boy is some value P which is equally likely to be any value from 0 to 1. In the first case, the probability of 6 boys and 1 gi…

But if they are having children until they have one of each, the probability of the different observations does depend on the prior events!

The absolute probability of the observation is irrelevant. Only the RELATIVE probabilities of said observation under the different possible theories which are part of the prior.

If the set of prior theories does not include anything that depends on birth order, then birth order and the experimental design are irrelevant to the posterior conclusions.

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#99
post #8

Is the p-value really not the probability of your results being due to chance? Is that not a perfectly valid definition of it? I suppose 'chance' is a little hand-wavy, but isn't a p-value just the probability of your data given that your hypothesis is false? Isn't that literally and precisely the probability that they occurred by chance?

Imagine I handed you a 20-sided die. I claim it says 7 on every side, but I might be lying. You roll a 7. What are the chances it actually has 7 on every side?

You can't actually say unless you either (1) roll the die more times, or (2) assume something about the probability that I gave you an all-7's die to begin with.

Doing (2) is useless, because that exactly the question we are trying to answer.

For example, suppose I perform this experiment all the time and I know that I give an all-7's die only 1% of the time. With this new information, you could actually calculate the probability of an all-7's die given a 7 roll. Of all the possible outcomes, you could add up the ones where I gave you an all-7s die and the ones where I gave you a normal die but you just rolled 7. Then you could divide that by the total number of possible outcomes.

But this would give you a totally different number than if I give you an all-7's die 99% of the time. And the problem is that you don't have any information about what kind of die you have before you roll it. You're trying to figure out which world we live in -- one where your hypothesis is true or one where it's not.

(I am pretty sure that what I wrote above is true. But one thing I'm not as clear on is how multiple rolls of the die actually can establish confidence percentages. How many rolls does it take to actually establish confidence? Would love to hear from any stats experts about that.)

Re: Statisticians Find They Can Agree: It’s Time to Stop Misusing P-Values

#100
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim the significance has nothing to do with the magnitude of a difference is just wrong though. It clearly does, this information is just merged with other information about the variance and sample size to get the p-value, which is compared to a threshold to get significance.

it's not "just wrong". On the contrary, it is asymptotically true. In a world of abundant data, that matters.

Please expand on this.
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