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Proselint

proselint.com

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Re: Proselint

#121

I'm a writer and editor, and I dislike the idea of this tool quite a bit. 1. Writing isn't coding. In coding, you can do various types of "cargo cult programming" and "copypasta" and what-have-you -- in other words, as long as the code runs you don't necessarily have to know why or how a programming idiom or convention works, or how/why expressing it one way in code is better than expressing it another way in code. T…

I'm a foreigner, who speaks English as a 3rd language, and I like the idea of this tool quite a bit.

You look like my wife complaining of GPS devices because sometimes they error or take us to dangerous places. It is just a took, you can just ignore its recommendations.

Re: Proselint

#122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback. These are issues we've thought about, and we came to different conclusions: re 2, you'll see at http://proselint.com/approach/ that one of the guiding principles of Proselint is that we defer to experts. In practice, that's meant almost all the advice comes from Bryan Garner's usage guide, Garner's Modern American Usage. He is a careful compiler of advice and you'll find that he is almost nev…

Do you have any linguists consulting / on staff? Bryan Garner might be a careful compiler but doesn't seem to be a linguist and seems to be a traditionalist who makes simple errors. e.g. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001869.h... "His chapter is unfortunately full of repetitions of stupidities of the past tradition in English grammar — more of them than you could shake a stick at." http://languag…

Garner's focus is on usage, not grammar, so for a usage linter, this doesn't seem like a big problem.

Is there an accessible, comprehensive, easy-to-read guide like Garner's Modern American Usage that's considered more accurate? There don't seem to be many options.

(I have a copy of GMAU and enjoy it, but mostly for discussion of usage, not the details of grammar)

Re: Proselint

#123
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but the problem is much worse than that. Examining 200 entries from Garner's Modern American Usage at random reveals that half of them are easy to implement, the kind of thing that could be assigned as a homework problem (e.g., recognizing that “$10 USD” is redundant, that “very unique” is comparing an uncomparable adjective, or that people from Michigan are called “Michiganders”, not “Michiganites”). T…

> recognizing that “$10 USD” is redundant People in Australia might disagree. As might people in Bermuda, Colombia, Canada, Hong Kong, Argentina, ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar#Other_national_currenci...

Either "$10" or "10 [USD|AUD|etc]" are correct. It is unequivocally incorrect to use both symbols. use the first when it's clear in context what kind of dollar is being referred to, otherwise use the second.

Re: Proselint

#124
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback. These are issues we've thought about, and we came to different conclusions: re 2, you'll see at http://proselint.com/approach/ that one of the guiding principles of Proselint is that we defer to experts. In practice, that's meant almost all the advice comes from Bryan Garner's usage guide, Garner's Modern American Usage. He is a careful compiler of advice and you'll find that he is almost nev…

Do you have any linguists consulting / on staff? Bryan Garner might be a careful compiler but doesn't seem to be a linguist and seems to be a traditionalist who makes simple errors. e.g. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001869.h... "His chapter is unfortunately full of repetitions of stupidities of the past tradition in English grammar — more of them than you could shake a stick at." http://languag…

You're implying that there is some kind of well-accepted notion of Bryan Garner being a poor guide to usage, but you link to some articles that are just nitpicking small terminology differences.

The second link in particular is tendentious. It claims Garner gives "a savage indictment of the behavior and character of those who use Stage 1 words [new usages]" in his book MAU.

But if you follow to the linked page from MAU, you read that Garner is, in an appendix, giving a series of wry analogies for the process of acceptance of new terms -- not a savage indictment at all. In other words, Garner is not himself saying all new usages have "a grade of F", etc., he's saying that is how some new usages will be perceived, in a very gross and qualitative sense, by a strict static conception of the language.

Since Garner comes right out and explicitly says all of the above, the link you cite comes off as picking a fight. There's nothing there.

Having read MAU (back in its first edition), I have to say that Garner strikes me as a very good guide to usage. I still enjoy perusing the book.

Taken as a whole, do you really have significant issues with MAU as a usage guide?

Re: Proselint

#125
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback. These are issues we've thought about, and we came to different conclusions: re 2, you'll see at http://proselint.com/approach/ that one of the guiding principles of Proselint is that we defer to experts. In practice, that's meant almost all the advice comes from Bryan Garner's usage guide, Garner's Modern American Usage. He is a careful compiler of advice and you'll find that he is almost nev…

Do you have any linguists consulting / on staff? Bryan Garner might be a careful compiler but doesn't seem to be a linguist and seems to be a traditionalist who makes simple errors. e.g. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001869.h... "His chapter is unfortunately full of repetitions of stupidities of the past tradition in English grammar — more of them than you could shake a stick at." http://languag…

^^ This right here, is exactly what I'm talking about.

Again, the idea of prose linting is not terrible, and in fact I do a hacked up version of it with a set of standard "find/replace" operations for specific writers who have specific issues. But a giant, general-purpose ball of rules of dubious provenance applied to a generic abstraction called "prose", is what I take issue with.

Re: Proselint

#126
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the feedback. These are issues we've thought about, and we came to different conclusions: re 2, you'll see at http://proselint.com/approach/ that one of the guiding principles of Proselint is that we defer to experts. In practice, that's meant almost all the advice comes from Bryan Garner's usage guide, Garner's Modern American Usage. He is a careful compiler of advice and you'll find that he is almost nev…

Calling someone from Manchester a "Manchesterian" instead of "Mancunian" is not wrong, or even necessarily bad. Rather, it communicates something to the reader. Depending on the context, it could mean this person doesn't know that the correct term is "Mancunian", and did not look it up or even know that it should be looked up, all of which gives me useful info and context about the writer and their education level an…

> all of which gives me useful info and context about the writer and their education level and the amount of effort they put into the piece and the amount of editing it underwent and so on.

From a reader centrist point of view, I can understand lamenting the loss of this information channel. From the author's stance, I can imagine wanting to tighten up alternate channels of information and present a clearer message. The author always has this ability, through natural circumstance, effort or research, so this tool would do nothing but make it easier. As a reader, it may change the assessment to whether they ran a proselint-like tool or not, but in the end those are just assumptions. The writer could be making specific choices to disregard the linting tool on purpose. In the end, reading is still an interpretive experience, this just allows authors more options.

> The way to improve genuinely bad writing is not with rules and tools -- it's with lots of reading, a little mentorship, and lots and lots and lots of practice.

Generally good advice for any thing, but I think it's worth noting that different people learn in different ways, and providing more methods for learning is generally an improvement, and opens the field to more people. Tools that look to circumvent historical methods for achieving skill often face an uphill battle from those that used those historical methods. It's easy to see why, as it looks like it has devalued much of the hard work they put into their skills. This may be true to an extent, but the gains often far outweigh this, as making a skill accessible to more people has wide ranging benefits for society in general.

In more concrete terms, I see no reason why a tool like this can't be a multiplier for mentorship and practice. At the very least it enables exposure to ideas that might not have been encountered before.

Re: Proselint

#127
post #34

This sounds interesting. As a bit of constructive criticism, please put some examples high up. You tell me it does cool things. Great, show me. I've looked about on the various pages and can see only one example and I don't understand it: text.md:0:10: wallace.uncomparables Comparison of an uncomparable: 'unique' can not be compared. What's the context of this, what's the error it would have caught in my writing? The…

Some people feel you should never ever say things like "more unique", "most unique" etc Which I think is equally as misguided as trying to force "data" to be plural, and that "less than 3" is wrong

> Some people feel you should never ever say things like "more unique", "most unique" etc

I am among them. Here's why:

(1) There are already other words that express related concepts that are subject to gradation: "rare", "special", "unusual", and "extraordinary" come to mind.

(2) The original meaning of "unique", namely "one of a kind", is an important concept. If we let the word's meaning get lost, we will not be able to express that meaning as easily.

Re: Proselint

#128
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you claiming you can paste in your own copy, and it will run against it? I see no text area in Chrome or Safari, what am I missing?

You're missing a stupid CSS trick; apparently everything should be flat flat flat nowadays, even if that means throwing UX out of the window. The sample text is editable, even though it looks as if it's not.

Thanks, I feel dumb and I feel it is dumb design. I should've known, and did figure it out eventually, but that won't pass the grandma test, and yes, it is a CLI tool, but so what. If a wanna be developer can't figure it out, the cli tool may have just as many different conventions from other cli tools as well.

Re: Proselint

#129
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://proselint.com/write/

Are you claiming you can paste in your own copy, and it will run against it? I see no text area in Chrome or Safari, what am I missing?

Doesn't work at all in Firefox... it's just an editable page with no underlines or annotations. I was really confused until I tried with Chrome.

Re: Proselint

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any linguists consulting / on staff? Bryan Garner might be a careful compiler but doesn't seem to be a linguist and seems to be a traditionalist who makes simple errors. e.g. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001869.h... "His chapter is unfortunately full of repetitions of stupidities of the past tradition in English grammar — more of them than you could shake a stick at." http://languag…

You're implying that there is some kind of well-accepted notion of Bryan Garner being a poor guide to usage, but you link to some articles that are just nitpicking small terminology differences. The second link in particular is tendentious. It claims Garner gives "a savage indictment of the behavior and character of those who use Stage 1 words [new usages]" in his book MAU . But if you follow to the linked page from…

> some kind of well-accepted notion of Bryan Garner being a poor guide to usage

Wasn't my intention - merely pointing out that he's not a linguist and making simple errors should give anyone using him as an "authority" considerable pause.

> do you really have significant issues with MAU as a usage guide?

I am neither an American nor a linguist - which makes me doubly unqualified to comment. That I leave to experts.

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