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BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

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Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#201
post #199
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicles aren't the only things running software that might need verifying. Far from it. While I wholeheartedly agree that it would be an amazing step, I also fear the huge backlash from the car and IT industry. Doing this more gradual probably works better, perhaps requiring open source (I'm not talking freedom of modification or redistributing or anything yet, just viewing source code) for software older than x yea…

> Doing this more gradual probably works better, perhaps requiring open source (I'm not talking freedom of modification or redistributing or anything yet, just viewing source code) for software older than x years (like the patent model a bit, 20 years or so). In that case, the car software is still proprietary software so you've gained very little from making the source code public. If a vulnerability is found, you c…

> Car software should be free software upfront.

Yes! Just like medical implants (and the server-side counterparts that control them), and my password manager, and actually any software that is in between me and my password manager (OS, drivers, perhaps a browser), and private stuff like my email client/server, and instant messaging client/server, and things that track my vitals like those smart watch-like wristbands, and any non-domestically developed software the government uses, etc.

Except few people aside from a few "open source radicals" will think like that. For every person I know who will fully support this motion, I know five who will object and another one or two who aren't really sure, and I already have a biased social circle because I do believe in this cause.

As it stands, we never get to peek under the hood. A system like this would at least make people aware that "gosh, if we implement this cheating now (or whatever), we have to make sure to cover it up before we have to go public with it. Better document extensively where it's implemented so we can remove it thoroughly". Which is a bigger step than just one manager going "do it". And we would be able to see trends over the past years and reflect necessary changes in new policy. Perhaps two decades too late by then, but as it stands, we have naught.

Then once people get used to the idea that in 20 years, when the software is commercially useless anyway, perhaps we can open source it sooner. Or more companies will go "look at us, we publish after 5 years for transparency without loosing our cutting edge!" A bit of wishful thinking perhaps, but I'm sure some will, and everyone would be forced after a certain time anyway.

But once again, this is just one way of doing it. There are almost certainly better ways I didn't think of yet. We should just be thinking about it in the first place.

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#202
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicles aren't the only things running software that might need verifying. Far from it. While I wholeheartedly agree that it would be an amazing step, I also fear the huge backlash from the car and IT industry. Doing this more gradual probably works better, perhaps requiring open source (I'm not talking freedom of modification or redistributing or anything yet, just viewing source code) for software older than x yea…

"Perhaps requiring open source (I'm not talking freedom of modification or redistributing or anything yet, just viewing source code)" The term you're looking for is "source-available", which means precisely that the source code is available for viewing, and does not imply anything about conditions or lack of.

Right, I heard that term before but didn't think of it. Thanks :)

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also under that impression as well, but from that same page you posted: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWritten... Which sounds like if you didn't provide the source with the program up front then you're required to give it to anyone that asks since they may have received the program indirectly.

> since they may have received the program indirectly. Which is rarely possible for a car OS, honestly.

Does the intention behind some GPL clause matter or how some court would interpret the text?

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#204
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since they may have received the program indirectly. Which is rarely possible for a car OS, honestly.

Does the intention behind some GPL clause matter or how some court would interpret the text ?

For a court the intention very much matters – in case of doubt, the court will always resort to interpreting the intention.

At least in Germany – and BMW is German.

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#205
post #24

Has anyone ever seen GPL being encorced in any country? Wont this end with BWM uploading a tar.gz of a kernel found on kernel.org and call it a good working day? Have seen it happen too many times, and in most countries the user has no claim on the license/copyright. So unless I contributed/own some copyright found in exact Linux kernel version/other software used by a distributor, and buy their stuff, there is zilch…

Yes, and actually on BMW home country, Germany. The summary can be read at this old Slashdot submission [1] from 2005 but the gist of it is that > Harald Welte of the netfilter/iptables core team sought to enjoin Sitecom from distributing its WL-122 router, which used netfilter's GPL'd code, without also providing the source code and a copy of the GPL, as that license requires and > The Munich Court granted Welte a p…

Wow refreshing good news(?), did not know about that. Awesome.

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#206
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the evidence that they've modified GPL'd software There's a Linux kernel and systemd in the 'i3'. See the links in the first few sentences of the article. > which they are then distributing BMW is a Bayerische Motor Work, a car company that distributes cars > and are refusing to distribute the source code for their modifications? The letters from BMW to the people asking for a copy of the source, stating t…

I read that, but isn't this is the lowest type of "violation" there is? People are just wanting them to host the source code that is already available in about a billion locations then? My question still stands, is there evidence that they're modifying GPL'd code and then not distributing that code?

You do not need to modify a copyrighted work in order to create a derivative. A music video for often use unmodified songs, but the combination of music and moving images still counts as a derivative work that require additional permissions from the copyright holder.

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#207
post #117
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically they don't need to give you the code unless you own that model of car. There's no requirement in the GPL that the code has to be shared to the whole world/everyone. It only needs to be provided to the person that has bought the vehicle which includes said software in compiled form.

This is not correct. They need to provide the offer for source to anyone they provide the binaries to (e.g. customers) but the offer has to be valid for anyone that gets a hold of it[1]. [1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenO...

I think I didn't expand my comment enough. In this context (of software running a car), the manufacturer needs to provide a way of getting the GPL'd source code to anyone that owns a vehicle with the relevant binary running in the car.

Basically you don't lose your GPL software right if you've bought the car from someone else other than the manufacturer.

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#208
post #189
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really look at GPL too closely, since I do not code for a living, or make commercial products, but I have to say my superficial understanding of opensource and GPL was piqued by the statement from @jackhat above with the 'legal rights of the property creators as owners.' If I take this statement to mean that GPL is the mirror-image of proprietary license agreements in that it is not free to use, since the sti…

If I take this statement to mean that GPL is the mirror-image of proprietary license agreements in that it is not free to use, since the stipulation is that you must publish your source code as the cost, would my understanding be correct? No. Your latter assertion is correct: GPL code is not free as in beer. How you contort that into a "mirror-image of proprietary license" is your own interpretation, and requires a l…

> To put it in the most simplest terms: the GPL is mainly concerned with the freedom of the source code, not the freedom of the developer.

Freedom of the users. Source code is not a person, it cannot have "freedom".

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#209
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using GPL'd source as the basis of your work (this is, creating a derivate of a work licensed under the GPL), and then distributing that modified work, saddles the author with the responsibility of handing over the code upon user request. The GPL also prevents changing the license if you're not the original author.

You can never change the license of a work, you can only distribute your own changes under a difference license.

If you own all of the copyright over a work, or if the license explicitly allows sublicensing (BSD and MIT), you can change the license of a work (or a fork of the work).

Re: BMW Australia Refusing to Comply with Terms of GNU Public License

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true in the real world if and only if there is someone willing to sue BMW and see it through to the end. Absent someone doing that I don't see how the GPL is actually enforceable. In some ways it is similar to what we have with surveillance and the NSA in US. While they are probably breaking the law the courts have been unwilling to force them to stop.

1. They're not "breaking the law" because copyright infringement is primarily a civil matter (recent changes nonwithstanding). 2. Your statement is essentially tautological because nothing in civil law is ever enforced without someone taking the initiative.

> 1. They're not "breaking the law" because copyright infringement is primarily a civil matter (recent changes notwithstanding).

They aren't committing a crime, they are breaking a law (copyright law). Civil laws are called "laws" for a reason.

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