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A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

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Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#31

Post by eric_h »

I really have never understood the cheater's mentality, at least when it comes to these silly, artificial games we play.

Yes, at the highest level of professional sports, etc. I see a clear financial motive to cheat (cue reference to the amorality of corporations), but some subset of people cheat all the way down that hierarchy in sports/cards/etc.

/slightly OT, but thematically in line, I think:

I'm a rather avid amateur billiards player (there's no money in pool in the US anymore, not that I can even compete with the pros - I'm better at making money with a keyboard) and I routinely see a (admittedly small, probably around 1%, but unchanging as players come and go) percentage of amateur players that clearly, actively want to cheat as long as they can get away with it.

The actual expected value for their cheating is terrible. I play in a couple of leagues where, if, by chance, you get first place, you'll get ~$1000, having paid ~$256 in table time (and 16 weeks of play) to get to that last match.

It's just a game! Isn't the whole point, and fun, and glory of winning a game actually winning by the restrictions placed on you by the rules? I can beat Tiger Woods by hitting him in the temple with an icepick, but why? The rules are what make the game challenging.

I guess I just don't get it, if I foul in a pool game I'll call myself on it, because if I didn't I wouldn't walk away from it thinking I won. I'd think I cheated and I would feel terrible about it.

Reiterating my opening sentence, I just do not understand people who cheat on games.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#32

Post by hexwab »

So here's an idea for a game. Let's call it "inductive bridge".

1) Rules of play are as for standard contract bridge.

2) You may use whatever conventions you like. There is no obligation to tell anybody what they are.

3) Have fun figuring out the opposing partnership's conventions!

Yes, it'd be a whole different ball game. But would it be worse?

Discuss.

(Full disclosure: I played bridge competitively at university.)

(Update: seems k_sze was ahead of me.)

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#33

Post by RickHull »

eric_h wrote: post #31

I really have never understood the cheater's mentality, at least when it comes to these silly, artificial games we play. Yes, at the highest level of professional sports, etc. I see a clear financial motive to cheat (cue reference to the amorality of corporations), but some subset of people cheat all the way down that hierarchy in sports/cards/etc. /slightly OT, but thematically in line, I think: I'm a rather avid am…

> I just do not understand people who cheat on games.

I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship values honor and conduct; gamesmanship values winning.

It seems that the highest levels of competition reward gamesmanship over sportsmanship, perhaps unsurprisingly. There is a culture of gamesmanship, and gamesmen have better outcomes. Competitions where this seems to be the case include:

    * auto racing
    * football (world)
    * football (american)
    * cycling
    * fighting (MMA, boxing)
And I'm sure plenty of others. These mottos are prevalent:

    * If you're not cheating, you're not trying
    * It's not cheating if you don't get caught

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#34

Post by eru »

anamexis wrote: post #27
eru wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try Mü. It's a German style trick taking game, somewhat comparable to Bridge, but can be enjoyed at a more casual level, too.

I am a huge fan of Tichu, which is also a more casual Bridge-like game.

Tichu is fun, too. I managed to convert some Singaporeans from Big-Two to Tichu.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#35

Post by eru »

na85 wrote: post #23
eru wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just shows that bridge can not really be played cut-throat competitively with humans face-to-face. (Social play is fine and fun.) Adding intermediation (either other humans or computers) removes most of the problems.

>Adding intermediation (either other humans or computers) removes most of the problems. Perhaps, but that just reinforces the notion that the game is fundamentally broken. If a card game works better on computers, then it's not really much of a card game, is it?

Why? I said cutthroat competitive play works better via computer. Competitive fair play, or even more so casual play, works just fine face to face.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#36

Post by duffdevice »

na85 wrote: post #25
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

counting cards is legal in Atlantic City, but if they suspect you of it they'll shuffle every hand or not let you change the size of your bet.

>counting cards is legal in Atlantic City, but if they suspect you of it they'll shuffle every hand or not let you change the size of your bet. The fact that there's something to "suspect you of" is the whole problem. Doing the same (counting cards) in poker is explicitly encouraged, and the ability to know what cards remain in the deck is highly prized. Blackjack is just not a very well-designed game.

Counting cards in poker? Say what? The deck is shuffled between every hand.

Unless you're referring to the basic skill of determining odds to make a certain hand based on your hole cards and the common cards?

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#37

Post by eric_h »

RickHull wrote: post #33
eric_h wrote: post #31

I really have never understood the cheater's mentality, at least when it comes to these silly, artificial games we play. Yes, at the highest level of professional sports, etc. I see a clear financial motive to cheat (cue reference to the amorality of corporations), but some subset of people cheat all the way down that hierarchy in sports/cards/etc. /slightly OT, but thematically in line, I think: I'm a rather avid am…

> I just do not understand people who cheat on games. I think they have a fundamentally different personality type: sportsman vs. gamesman. Sportsmanship values honor and conduct; gamesmanship values winning. It seems that the highest levels of competition reward gamesmanship over sportsmanship, perhaps unsurprisingly. There is a culture of gamesmanship, and gamesmen have better outcomes. Competitions where this seem…

That's a fair point. In the game of pool gamesmanship has a long history, though in that context it's called hustling.

Of course, the game of pool has always had a history of gambling; the fact that we even call it pool is a reference to the betting pool. Still, even when I play a set for money I won't cheat because it makes me feel dirty. I guess I just can't reconcile the fact that when I win without cheating, I feel great as though I accomplished something (although obviously it's just a game). When I win by luck I don't get the same satisfaction as when I win by perfectly executing whatever plan I was trying to accomplish.

I guess I'll just never understand the hustler's mindset; I'll never be a conman.

As an aside, I think it's amusing that the term "hustle" means "do whatever it takes to get by", or just "give it all you've got" when it's meant, roughly, "undersell your actual skill level to fleece someone out of their money" for many decades in the pool world.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#38

Post by JMStewy »

duffdevice wrote: post #36
na85 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>counting cards is legal in Atlantic City, but if they suspect you of it they'll shuffle every hand or not let you change the size of your bet. The fact that there's something to "suspect you of" is the whole problem. Doing the same (counting cards) in poker is explicitly encouraged, and the ability to know what cards remain in the deck is highly prized. Blackjack is just not a very well-designed game.

Counting cards in poker? Say what? The deck is shuffled between every hand. Unless you're referring to the basic skill of determining odds to make a certain hand based on your hole cards and the common cards?

That's true for hold'em, but in stud variants you need to keep track of the cards held or folded by other players.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#39

Post by sanswork »

JMStewy wrote: post #38
duffdevice wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counting cards in poker? Say what? The deck is shuffled between every hand. Unless you're referring to the basic skill of determining odds to make a certain hand based on your hole cards and the common cards?

That's true for hold'em, but in stud variants you need to keep track of the cards held or folded by other players.

But that's a very different skill from counting cards.

Re: A cheating scandal in the world of professional bridge

#40

Post by toyg »

laxatives wrote: post #30
sharkjacobs wrote: post #10

I enjoy bridge, but high level competitive bridge sounds like a nightmare. "Expert poker players often take advantage of a skill they call table feel: an ability to read the facial expressions and other unconscious “tells” exhibited by their opponents. Bridge players rely on table feel, too, but in bridge not all tells can be exploited legally by all players. If one of my opponents hesitates during the bidding or the…

Seems very arbitrary. There's a very similar card game in Spain called Truco (and in Italy called Briscola). Truco accepts communication and even bluffing as a core component. There are very standard system for hidden communication, like a wink representating a particular strong card and pursing the lips means another. Because these are so well known, its common to either wait for the right moment to share info, or i…

In a similar way, another Italian card game, "tressette", has a set of formalized signals which you are forced to use (and are limited to) when opening a round, without lying - "i have other cards of this type", "this is my last card of this type" and "I want your strongest card" (I know them as striscio/volo/busso, but they change regionally). So you have a situation where card and signal technically mean one thing everybody knows, but might ask different strategies of the partner depending on his interpretation of the matter, the sequence of calls, and his tactical skills.

Obviously it later generates untold amounts of discussion and fighting over such interpretation, which is what us Southerners fundamentally crave ;)

I have to say, I miss card games. They used to be a fundamental part of Italian education, a social icebreaker and a great generational bridge. Electronic entertainment completely obliterated them, and unsavory vices like slot machines and drugs have now replaced them in public spaces. There are less fights and loud arguments, sure, but it's all very sad.

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