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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#361
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed. In some countries there is a taboo about openly discussing salaries, but keeping them secret only helps employers and hurts the negotiating power of employees.

Personally I think it'd be a pretty big distraction if everyone knew exactly how much everyone else made. I don't really care to know what the head of accounting is making, or what the customer support lead is making. If the company needs someone with a super-specialized skill and has to pay them 3x what I'm being paid, what business is it of mine? If the company needed my skills desperately and I was offered 3x the…

Salary information is public knowledge in several countries, and even in the US, government salaries are public.

That experience shows that this information does not cause a big distraction.

Public salary helps level the power imbalance between the employer (who has more experience in negotiation and more knowledge about what people are willing to accept) and the employee, and makes it harder to hide systemic wage discrimination.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#362
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? As long as there are substantial number to whom it does apply, it will remain a real on-average sex difference.

This sub-topic was about normalizing parental leave. Is your argument then that societal policy should only be based upon real on-average differences?

It may not be perfect, but policy real average data are probably better than policies based on ideology without average data?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#363
post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

New father here. My current employer provides two weeks of paternal leave. I ended up taking a third week of vacation time to extend this, which I'm in now. It still doesn't feel like it's enough. I'm exhausted today, despite taking a mid-day nap. When I go back next week, I will not be at my best, and there's no way of me being at my best short of sleeping in another room with earplugs while my wife does 100% of the…

Not sure where you live but there's FMLA in the USA for up to 12 weeks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_and_Medical_Leave_Act_o...

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#364
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is helped by having healthy babies, yes. You haven't provided any support for your argument that I , as someone without children, must be made to subsidize the family choices of others. The resources to cover the extended work absence of the parents has to come from somewhere. In many cases, it'll be one past parent covering a new parent, and then vice-versa. But those of us who can't have children (a) don't…

I'd say that you came up in the public school system, were raised by a mother who dropped out of the workforce and stopped her other contributions to society in order to raise you, received all the cheap or free healthcare that is available to minors, and took advantage of all the opportunities that society provides to young people in order to help them be successful and functional parts of their community. So you've…

I doubt any legal scholar would argue that a pre-schooler is able to sign a contract obliging them to pay back a student loan, so how can you say any given person owes society for their public school education?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing, which is not economically valued or rewarded, and men to specialize in earning income, which wields huge social and economic power. And the reason this happens is that men withhold their parenting labour, and women are forced to pick up the slack. It's just like the feminist saying... "If men got pregnant, abortion would be available free of char…

> we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing I see no evidence of any force being applied. Women are free to chose their own relationship types same as men. Exceptionally few choose to be breadwinner supporting a stay at home father. Vastly more choose to be stay at home mom married to an income earning dad.

I actually think this is a mirror image of "companies don't hire women / because there aren't enough qualified women!" discussion.

I think there is healthy demand from women to marry a stay at home father, but not enough supply of men who prepared to be a stay at home father from a young age, dreaming about it, excellent at cooking and homemaking, etc. Pipeline needs to be fixed before stay at home fathers can be common.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#366
post #360

When those gender roles are all but constant across countless independently developed cultures existent over tens of thousands of years, with distribution of visible physical traits to match them, it's pretty safe to assume that they're baked into our DNA and not some random whim of western culture. Imagine how long a tribe with male caretakers and female warriors (who it cannot be argued are not on average significa…

That is a bad assumption that will mislead you. The gender roles are not baked into our DNA. There are 'baked-in' DNA traits, that have emergently caused cultures to adopt those gender roles in their historical contexts. 'Baked-id' DNA traits are now emergently leading to the abandonment of gender roles in the context of western cultures & economies. Please re-evaluate your assumptions because they are wrong.

What do you make of studies that show monkeys and humans have a similar gender-biased breakdown of toy preferences and juvenile activities?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument ignores cultural evolution, which humans have long used to adapt to changing circumstances much more quickly than biological evolution. Just as we evolved culturally to accommodate the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, we will do the same to accommodate our modern post-physical labor society. And I don't think we live in a "hyper-PC" society in this regard at all. Let's put it this w…

> People would be more surprised to find out that a woman's husband quit his job to stay home with the kids than to find out that her husband is a different race. The validity of that statement is highly location dependent.

But the places where that depends are places where PC-ness isn't much of a thing. In Papua new guinea PC isn't on the consciousness of people.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#368
post #138
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just society, it's also biology. Even if "parenting" roles were completely equal, "childbirth" role would fall only on women, so they would still take more time off for children (and hence get lower pay).

Indeed, the crusade against biology is one I watch with great amusement. Don Quixote would be proud of those who hoist their flags in battle against evolution, biology and the laws of the universe itself. Keep up the good fight, dear gender abolitionists, for you truly are against a formidable foe.

all this is caused by one weakness exhibited by many men.

1. Attempting to fix the problems of the women in their circle and the resulting echo chamber effect.

These men feel guilty when they hear/see women getting into a victim complex or when they are uncomfortable with market forces.

I keep asking my wife & women I know to demand higher salaries and they are content to take the easy non-confrontational path.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#369
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the father of a 10 week old baby girl, it isn't as simple as just society enabling parents to contribute equally. I am SO into being a dad. I want to do as much caregiving as possible. However, breastfeeding kinda throws a monkey wrench into the "split all the work equally" plan. For newborns, eating is what they do most of the time (when they aren't sleeping). If you breastfeed your child, which all pediatricians…

True. But from about 9 months you could both work say 3 days a week if you wanted. Mind you if you have another child you'd have to do that again. But good luck getting well paid 3 days a week work for both of you.

Yeah, we are going to do some of those work schedule things as we go forward (we are also going to do daycare).

It is just hard because the caregiving pattern is already established.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#370
post #360

When those gender roles are all but constant across countless independently developed cultures existent over tens of thousands of years, with distribution of visible physical traits to match them, it's pretty safe to assume that they're baked into our DNA and not some random whim of western culture. Imagine how long a tribe with male caretakers and female warriors (who it cannot be argued are not on average significa…

That is a bad assumption that will mislead you. The gender roles are not baked into our DNA. There are 'baked-in' DNA traits, that have emergently caused cultures to adopt those gender roles in their historical contexts. 'Baked-id' DNA traits are now emergently leading to the abandonment of gender roles in the context of western cultures & economies. Please re-evaluate your assumptions because they are wrong.

>The gender roles are not baked into out DNA.

Men are larger and stronger than women, women are flooded with hormones during pregnancy that force a bond between them and their children. That is literally your biology encouraging a role.

>There are 'baked-in' DNA traits, that have emergently caused cultures to adopt those gender roles in their historical contexts.

Evolution is random chance leading to mutations that improve fitness. Cultures didn't wake up one day, notice that the men were stronger than the women and the women had stronger bonds with their children, and allocate people accordingly. The divergence in traits happened naturally over millennia, because specializing the genders for different roles resulted in improved fitness over keeping them identical, and thus, more likely to survive and produce offspring.

>'Baked-id' DNA traits are now emergently leading to the abandonment of gender roles in the context of western cultures & economies.

A liberal swing in culture is trying to encourage people to abandon their traditional gender roles, is upset when the majority of people want to stick to relatively traditional roles, and is confused when the people that do buck the traditional roles usually end up unhappy about it (working mothers sad because they don't get to spend enough time with kids, kids developing poorly because they didn't get to bond enough with their parents, etc).

You probably think I'm advocating the 50s status quo of men working all day and never seeing their children, women not being allowed into the workplace, and children spending the majority of their time being indoctrinated by the state; far from it, and that's not even a traditional lifestyle in any sense of the phrase. I would much prefer a lifestyle in which fathers and mothers can both work and spend time with their children, as was the norm prior to the industrial revolution. But passing judgement on modern lifestyles wasn't my point.

All I'm saying is that biology has a great influence on the roles people take up, and you can try to fight it all you want, but if you try to claim that the influence isn't there and it's all just a whim of culture, then you are engaging in the exact same kind of willfully ignorant anti-scientific thinking that people ridicule flat earthers and climate change deniers for. You have chosen your hypothesis and your conclusion and will ignore any evidence or train of thought that might lead you astray from it. The only difference is that the pendulum of liberal vs. conservative values has not yet swung back far enough for society to call you out on it.

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