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Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

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Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#281

Post by EdHominem »

rayiner wrote: post #239
gohrt wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it true that > The government persists with the drug war because Americans have a moral opposition to drug use: or > Americans have a moral opposition to drug use, because the government persists with the drug war ? Impressionable children are indoctrinated against drug use, by US law enforcement, in US public schools. > 70-80% of polled adults wanted to make even marijuana illegal. That's impossible, because mari…

> Impressionable children are indoctrinated against drug use, by US law enforcement, in US public schools. That's one theory, but it does not jive with the data. Millennials grew up with teachers shrieking "just say no!" at school assemblies. They were the most heavily propagandized generation with regards to the drug war. Much more so than their baby boomer teachers who grew up in the 1960's. Yet they're the ones le…

> So how can you say that moral opposition to drug use exists because of propaganda,

Because most of the opponents of legalization use the same talking points that the DARE and other school drug-abstinence programs use. Gateway drugs, etc. All the things we now know are nonsense. That's what makes it propaganda instead of information.

If these people didn't come to these opinions because of propaganda they'd use different terminology and different arguments.

> Moral opposition to drug usage is based on the need to establish social norms that discourage escapism and dependency.

No, because TV(, etc) is acceptable. Drugs are a problem because of our puritanical background. The issue isn't that you aren't being productive, it's that you're enjoying it.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#282

Post by Retric »

logicrook wrote: post #264
cichli wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident." If I choose to take drugs without the intention of becoming addicted, and I become addicted, then yes, I became addicted by accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of becoming addicted. Much like how if I decide to drive my car without the intention of hitting anyone, then if I hit someone, it is deemed an accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of hitting someone wit…

The analogy is "I decide to drive my car" while drunk "then I hit someone". In which case you are responsible. There is no accident. It's all a question of probabilities and risk. The probability to hit someone while driving normally are pretty weak, and the consequences fairly low in normal circumstances (i.e. while you respect every law). When drunk, the probabilities go through the roof, as well as how damaging th…

The probably of hitting someone while drunk driving on a given day are actually fairly low, as in under 1%. The real issue is people get into the habit of driving drunk and some people will drive drunk 3-4 days a week for a decade. It's the aggregate numbers that are a problem, when 10+ million people drive drunk at least once a month it was a huge issue even if most of them never get into an accident.

People like to pretend driving drunk is somehow different from driving tired, but the risks are actually similar. In fact a large chunk of 'drunk driving' accidents have more to do with people driving home late than intoxicated. Speeding, talking even just to passengers, and just flat out not paying attention also present major risks.

PS: 13x low odds are still generally low odds. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittPorterHo...

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#284

Post by linkregister »

existencebox wrote: post #185
hackerboos wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US works well because it's united at the federal level. What you are suggesting would only work if that level didn't exist.

This is a funny statement to me, since the initial federalization was supposed to exist without predisposing a much greater exercise in states rights than what we see today. (far fewer constraints on state law from federal) I'd adjust your statement: "What you are suggesting would only work if the level (of federal power we have NOW) didn't exist" That all being said, I'm not even sure my full level of pessimism is m…

This is a funny statement to me, since it ignores everything that happened after 1789. The evolution of a more centralized government was the result of conscious decisions by the public and lawmakers to overcome the challenges of a loose confederation.

Hell, the Constitution itself was drafted to solve the problem of arbitrarily differing business rules and trade agreements between the several states.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#286

Post by EdHominem »

DanBC wrote: post #262
wfo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda was not particularly effective while aimed at children since its primary vehicle was tying opposition of drug use as a way to signal and support racism which was a particular societal trait the children had not yet learned. Opposition of drug use was a way to express racism without actually expressing it once it became taboo following the civil rights era. The racism strategy was a much more powerful a…

The illegality of drugs means that criminal organisations use the manufacture and supply of drugs as one way to make money. Terrorist organisations need to smuggle things into and out of their target country (weapons, money, people) and so they have expertise that they can use to smuggle drugs. This link between terrorist groups and drugs is not new. Even groups who are strongly anti-drugs end up having connections t…

There's no intentional link usually. It's just the best illegal source of income. If it dried up they'd be smuggling blood diamonds, etc.

Terrorism is a gateway crime. :D

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#287

Post by dang »

anon4 wrote: post #84
ghshephard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is somewhat unique in that it's a country with very restricted freedoms, which have been given up in exchange for security/safety. It's extraordinarily rule-bound, and, in many ways, is the antithesis of the United States, in which freedoms reign. In such a structured, government controlled and monitored society, all sorts of rules can be laid down, and enforced through strict punishment. I wouldn't try and…

> But I hope you're going to start with the really destructive ones, like Alcohol and Nicotine before you start looking at the less harmful ones such as cannabis. Well, to be fair, I wouldn't mind executing alcoholics and smokers. But you can have the best of both worlds - provide help and healthcare to ones who have fallen in drug use and execute the ones who can't complete rehab.

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#288

Post by logicrook »

mtreis86 wrote: post #267
logicrook wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy is "I decide to drive my car" while drunk "then I hit someone". In which case you are responsible. There is no accident. It's all a question of probabilities and risk. The probability to hit someone while driving normally are pretty weak, and the consequences fairly low in normal circumstances (i.e. while you respect every law). When drunk, the probabilities go through the roof, as well as how damaging th…

I agree with your assertments about drinking and driving and the probabilities of harmful outcomes. I just don't think it is a good analogy for hardcore drug use. Many of us did not choose to start taking drugs. Not with any real sense of context. The consequences are very often "not real" until they become "all too real." A better analogy, would be "What do you do when you find yourself in a car moving at high speed…

The whole "drug users are victims" makes absolutely no more sense that "any criminal is a victim". You can't find a single person in the world who doesn't have bad circumstances. Even the people at Goldman-Sachs may have had a bad history of bullying, a difficult childhood because of divorce, a family that induced an unhealthy relation to competition or money, whatever. This example is not even a joke. Many "privileged" people had really bad psychological circumstances. But you won't say that any of the wall street crooks are victims.

I know a guy who spent 8 years of his life in prison, in many visits, mostly for petty theft and drug use/traffic (mostly cannabis). He had a really horrible life, and is a pretty cool guy, although he's obviously still struggling with addiction. He often says "there are only innocent people in prison, at least they all say that".

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#289

Post by cubano »

e40 wrote: post #269
cubano wrote: post #87

I've always thought that, in the US, that States could provide a perfect market testing platform for various social ideas. You don't want abortion? Make Kansas, say, a no abortion state. Legalized drugs? Head your head to Colorado. Socialism? Sure New Hampshire is almost there already anyway. Well, you get the point. It's been proven that actual markets almost always work as well if not better than diktat, so these "…

I personally love the idea, but the people in the US have already proven themselves to be impervious to facts, like the ones that would come out of studies like you suggest. What would happen, the results of the studies would be twisted and no further adoption would happen. It might happen because the media companies don't want whatever it is was shown to be "better". Lobbyists can overcome most facts by sheer force…

> I personally love the idea, but the people in the US have already proven themselves to be impervious to facts..

What a great insight, and yes it would seem that the political aspect and confirmation-bias issues would probably render any results moot.

This the age we live in I guess...seemingly solid oppo research on any subject are just a few clicks away.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#290

Post by EdHominem »

ridgeguy wrote: post #207
Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

To your reasons, I'd add financial interests of those involved in the WoD. Think of pre-trial asset confiscation, WoD-based grants to local law enforcement, $ to aerospace companies for WoD surveillance and detection technology, etc. Legalization would hit many powerful interests in their revenue streams.

Drugs are also a perfect excuse for anything. Drop a bag of something in someone's car and suddenly they have to prove it's not theirs. They can't, of course, so now anything you do to them is justified.

Did you accidentally beat up the wrong person? Plant drugs on them and charge them with resisting arrest and possession.

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