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Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

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Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#261

Post by wfo »

rayiner wrote: post #205
wfo wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug prohibition is a direct effect of the lift of alcohol prohibition: officials and LE officers needed something to do after there was no more alcohol smuggling to go after, so a new target was invented. Public opinion does not drive policy in this case, it is driven by policy. The public has been whipped up into a frenzy about drugs for years using various fear tactics, primarily racism to scare them into havi…

> The drug prohibition is a direct effect of the lift of alcohol prohibition: officials and LE officers needed something to do after there was no more alcohol smuggling to go after, so a new target was invented. That's a ridiculous proposition. There was a 40+ year gap between the two. > The public has been whipped up into a frenzy about drugs for years using various fear tactics Nixon coined the term "drug war" in 1…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Anslinger was one of the most serious bureaucratic prohibitionists, immediately after its repeal was appointed to commission the agency associated with drug prohibition, did a 180 on all of his positions on Marijuana, and doctored scientific evidence to push for a new enforcement target, since he was given a large powerful agency with very little to do. Without a witch to hunt the witch hunter fades from relevance, so he manufactured one, and that's why we are where we are today.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#262

Post by DanBC »

wfo wrote: post #258
rayiner wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Impressionable children are indoctrinated against drug use, by US law enforcement, in US public schools. That's one theory, but it does not jive with the data. Millennials grew up with teachers shrieking "just say no!" at school assemblies. They were the most heavily propagandized generation with regards to the drug war. Much more so than their baby boomer teachers who grew up in the 1960's. Yet they're the ones le…

The propaganda was not particularly effective while aimed at children since its primary vehicle was tying opposition of drug use as a way to signal and support racism which was a particular societal trait the children had not yet learned. Opposition of drug use was a way to express racism without actually expressing it once it became taboo following the civil rights era. The racism strategy was a much more powerful a…

The illegality of drugs means that criminal organisations use the manufacture and supply of drugs as one way to make money.

Terrorist organisations need to smuggle things into and out of their target country (weapons, money, people) and so they have expertise that they can use to smuggle drugs.

This link between terrorist groups and drugs is not new.

Even groups who are strongly anti-drugs end up having connections to drug dealing groups. The Provisional IRA was anti-drug, the Real IRA is so anti-drug that it's joined up with anti drug vigilantes, but there are links as far back as 1990 between pIRA and FARC and Columbian drug money.

To try to deny the links between terrorist groups and drug smuggling is weird in the face of so much evidence. Drugs were used as payment for the Madrid bombings.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#263

Post by agumonkey »

drumdance wrote: post #170
seren wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that having a strong cultural identity as anything to do with drugs consumption. For example, I am pretty sure Russians also have a fairly homogenous population with a strong identity, and they still have an alcohol problem (for other reason I am sure). But I can't see the correlation or the causation here.

Vodka is part of the Russian identity. Marijuana is not part of Hong Kong's identity.

It seems alcohol is often a national icon. While smoking plants.. except for Cuba maybe is rarely a culturally approved ritual.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#264

Post by logicrook »

cichli wrote: post #216
rayiner wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring a morally significant dimension to the problem. Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident. They choose to do drugs and take the risk not just of bodily harm, but of becoming unable to support their families and becoming a burden on society. And your suggestion is that society should spend money to treat them of an illness that was their fault to begin with. I happen to agree with you that treatment, no…

"Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident." If I choose to take drugs without the intention of becoming addicted, and I become addicted, then yes, I became addicted by accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of becoming addicted. Much like how if I decide to drive my car without the intention of hitting anyone, then if I hit someone, it is deemed an accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of hitting someone wit…

The analogy is "I decide to drive my car" while drunk "then I hit someone".

In which case you are responsible. There is no accident.

It's all a question of probabilities and risk. The probability to hit someone while driving normally are pretty weak, and the consequences fairly low in normal circumstances (i.e. while you respect every law). When drunk, the probabilities go through the roof, as well as how damaging the consequences can be.

When you start to take drugs, even considering all the surrounding context, the consequences can be terrible and the probabilities are quite high.

So no, it not an accident, assuming you see yourself as a human being, able to think about these. If you see yourself as a victim who couldn't foresee anything, then good for you.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#265

Post by ThrustVectoring »

pdkl95 wrote: post #197

The best argument I know for legalizing drugs is the market argument. As long as demand exist (obvious, or nobody would care), supply will rise to meet it. Law enforcement tactics that see rising drug prices as a sign of success only make the market more profitable. While many people engage in the popular delusion that people stop an activity when you pass laws banning, it's patently obvious that banning drugs is abo…

And when the market is more profitable, it becomes more worth your while to engage in violent crime in order to further your drug-dealing interests. Fast food franchises generally don't engage in turf wars, and that's because fast food is a low-margin business. If dealing drugs becomes similarly low-margin, I suspect that will deal with a lot of drug-related violence.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#266

Post by baddox »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

The drug problem was studied years ago by the RAND corporation and the US Military - a pure cost-benefit analysis. They found that treatment and education are the most cost effective way to deal with the drug problem, and that prohibition was the most costly and ineffective means of dealing with it. Therefore the government understands that the war on drugs is likely to be unsuccessful, and we have to ask ourselves,…

> A few reasons present themselves: Ideological motivations, they just don't like the drugs. The fact that if you terrify the population you can use that as means for greater political control and discipline. And the fact that Tobacco and Alcohol companies would likely suffer as a result of drug legalisation, like cannabis.

I'm sure those are all factors, but I bet the biggest factor is just police forces pushing for huge amounts of federal funding.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#267

Post by mtreis86 »

logicrook wrote: post #264
cichli wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody becomes a drug addict by accident." If I choose to take drugs without the intention of becoming addicted, and I become addicted, then yes, I became addicted by accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of becoming addicted. Much like how if I decide to drive my car without the intention of hitting anyone, then if I hit someone, it is deemed an accident. Even if I was aware of the risks of hitting someone wit…

The analogy is "I decide to drive my car" while drunk "then I hit someone". In which case you are responsible. There is no accident. It's all a question of probabilities and risk. The probability to hit someone while driving normally are pretty weak, and the consequences fairly low in normal circumstances (i.e. while you respect every law). When drunk, the probabilities go through the roof, as well as how damaging th…

I agree with your assertments about drinking and driving and the probabilities of harmful outcomes.

I just don't think it is a good analogy for hardcore drug use. Many of us did not choose to start taking drugs. Not with any real sense of context. The consequences are very often "not real" until they become "all too real."

A better analogy, would be "What do you do when you find yourself in a car moving at high speed with no brakes and no control over speed?"

This analogy specifically does not mention how you got into that position. Because its sort of irrelevant how your brakes came to be shot. What is relevant is how you can stop without causing damage to anyone else - in this situation, like with hardcore drug use, everyone involved is a victim. My point here is that recovery and harm reduction are not about casting blame. They are about finding a damn barrier to run into instead of a minivan full of kids.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#268

Post by frogpelt »

Forget questions of legality.

Stop and ask this question: Why do we as a society need more and more and MORE mind-altering substances to cope with life?

Seriously.

Is society headed in the right direction if almost everyone needs some type of external chemical influence just to get through the week?

I already have an answer.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#269

Post by e40 »

cubano wrote: post #87

I've always thought that, in the US, that States could provide a perfect market testing platform for various social ideas. You don't want abortion? Make Kansas, say, a no abortion state. Legalized drugs? Head your head to Colorado. Socialism? Sure New Hampshire is almost there already anyway. Well, you get the point. It's been proven that actual markets almost always work as well if not better than diktat, so these "…

I personally love the idea, but the people in the US have already proven themselves to be impervious to facts, like the ones that would come out of studies like you suggest.

What would happen, the results of the studies would be twisted and no further adoption would happen. It might happen because the media companies don't want whatever it is was shown to be "better". Lobbyists can overcome most facts by sheer force of their donations.

Yeah, it's what has doomed our political process these days.

Re: Kofi Annan on Why It's Time to Legalize Drugs

#270

Post by droffel »

Torgo wrote: post #237
jernfrost wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very had to compare to Japan because Japan essentially legalize organized crime. Yakuza are allowed to operate as long as the follow a minimum set of laws. Basically Japan is following a tradeoff where they have chosen organized crime of lots of unorganized or violent crime. So it will be very hard to compare such a system with a western country which deals with these issues in such a different manner. I can mention…

Maybe we should legalize organized crime instead of drugs. The logic is about the same.

How are legalizing drugs and legalizing crime in any way analogous? Legalizing crime doesn't even make sense, by definition.
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