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Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

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Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#51

Post by nandemo »

edcastro wrote: post #37
envy2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple: it seems that the issue isn't that WhatsApp/Facebook have wilfully disregarded the subpoena, but rather that Brazil isn't happy with their assertions that the information requested doesn't exist. WhatsApp has previously stated publicly that they don't retain any messages once they're delivered; if this is true, it's not strictly that they aren't willing to comply (though this may also be true),…

I agree, and if they CAN'T comply, they should address it on the court, not on a public statement that has no valid legal value. That's what it comes to. The court requested three times, increasing the fines each of the tries and it was received with [legal] silence from Facebook. That's why they went ahead and issued the arrest warrant.

The odd thing is, there are so many ways you can avoid an arrest legally in Brazil as long you have the legal resources. They could have thrown a liminar (injunction?) to avoid handing the data or, as a last resort, an habeas corpus to avoid the arrest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus

Our ex-president Lula has just avoided questioning/testifying on a corruption case. He's suspected of having gotten an apartment from construction companies as a bribe. It was on someone else's name, so he doesn't pay taxes on it etc (also illegal apart from the bribe). This is much more serious than this Facebook case, and there's so much evidence now that it would be a slam dunk case in any decent country. And Lula got out of it legally.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#52

Post by nandemo »

vaadu wrote: post #11

What if FB fired the VP? Pay him a nice severance, pay his legal fees but cut him off from being able to comply with the court order. At that point the authorities are left holding the bag.

No need to fire anyone. They should hire a legal team that either 1) makes sure the company is able to provide data requested by the Brazilian justice system requests, 2) enables the company to legally refuse such requests.

Though maybe your point is that it is the VP that has the responsibility of taking care of that? In that case I'd agree with you.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#53

Post by nandemo »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #7

Greenwald at The Intercept writes a lot about American spying and overreach in data access. I'll be interested to see what he writes about Brazil's activities such as this.

Come on, people. Why so many people ITT automatically associating this with "spying" (really?) or even overreach?

Our government aren't making requests secretly. They aren't requesting data in bulk. They aren't asking for a backdoor.

They are requesting data about specific people who are suspects in a specific case. Essentially using a search warrant.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#54

Post by pmarreck »

schoen wrote: post #40
pmarreck wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try and struggle through this please http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html Or read the google-translated version into Portuguese https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=pt&js=y&pr... It explains very well why this is no trivial issue to Americans nor to tech people. Also, your drugs should be legalized or decriminalized, anyway. It would put all the bad guys out of business and bring the…

That article includes a link to an official Portuguese translation, which is still available at http://lixo.org/blog/2013/08/05/privacidade-protege-pessoas-...

ah. oops.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#55

Post by Artur_Gaspar »

danielmantovani wrote: post #49
Artur_Gaspar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone commented, it could be the case that Facebook/WhatsApp does not even have the data any more. Also, WhatsApp operates as a separate business from Facebook. In my opinion this looks a lot more like a display of power by the government, than an actual effort in the investigation. I don't see either how Facebook would be "protecting themselves". They have little to gain and much to lose by not cooperating with…

Do you really believe that Facebook/WhatsApp don't have the data ? Please we are in 2016, data is everything! Don't you think they sell or use our data for an infinite kind of applications like send ads ? Analysing our personal data like WhatsApp and Facebook they can have so minimum details about us and classify in really minimum groups of "publicity". The mankind never in history had so mach data and ways(powerful…

Yes, I believe it is possible that they don't have the data. No, I don't think they collect private messages for targeted advertising or for any purposes at all.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#56

Post by piva00 »

pmarreck wrote: post #39
danielmantovani wrote: post #22

Just to clarify stupid arguments. The federal police was asking information like ip address from organised crime pages, they use Facebook as other social network pages(In this case actually we are talking about Whatsapp). Don't have ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPY CITIZENS. Like PCC( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Comando_da_Capital ) has an official facebook page. There is many people in Brazil who stole cellphones,…

Try and struggle through this please http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html Or read the google-translated version into Portuguese https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=pt&js=y&pr... It explains very well why this is no trivial issue to Americans nor to tech people. Also, your drugs should be legalized or decriminalized, anyway. It would put all the bad guys out of business and bring the…

Because Brazil is a huge country with a far less educated society as the Portuguese, with a lot of conservatives (evangelicals pastors who only scam are just an example of what 10~20% of our Deputies Chamber looks like) politicians who push their agendas that drugs are devil's things and every drug addict should be in jail.

And I say that as a Brazilian, you're comparing an European country with 10 million people (that's less than what my hometown of São Paulo has, now sitting at 11.8 million as of 2014 census) to a country of 200+ million of mostly uneducated people.

Sorry to tell you but you don't change a whole society way of thinking in less than a generation, much less when there's no politicians' desire for that.

Yeah, anyway it should be decriminalized (as it's for users right now) or legalized, but if you want to be real about it, come up with a plan, because realistically speaking there's no way to do it in the next 10~15 years.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#57

Post by maze-le »

nandemo wrote: post #52
vaadu wrote: post #11

What if FB fired the VP? Pay him a nice severance, pay his legal fees but cut him off from being able to comply with the court order. At that point the authorities are left holding the bag.

No need to fire anyone. They should hire a legal team that either 1) makes sure the company is able to provide data requested by the Brazilian justice system requests, 2) enables the company to legally refuse such requests. Though maybe your point is that it is the VP that has the responsibility of taking care of that? In that case I'd agree with you.

> makes sure the company is able to provide data requested

How should that be possible if FB doesn't store this information in the first place? I mean, if there would be a legal requirement for data retention on behalf of the state, I could understand the issue. But there isn't...

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#58

Post by danielmantovani »

Artur_Gaspar wrote: post #55
danielmantovani wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that Facebook/WhatsApp don't have the data ? Please we are in 2016, data is everything! Don't you think they sell or use our data for an infinite kind of applications like send ads ? Analysing our personal data like WhatsApp and Facebook they can have so minimum details about us and classify in really minimum groups of "publicity". The mankind never in history had so mach data and ways(powerful…

Yes, I believe it is possible that they don't have the data. No, I don't think they collect private messages for targeted advertising or for any purposes at all.

All my friends from Whatsapp show as Facebook suggestion just occasionally.

Re: Brazil arrests Facebook executive in row over police access to data

#59

Post by nickpsecurity »

nandemo wrote: post #53
nickpsecurity wrote: post #7

Greenwald at The Intercept writes a lot about American spying and overreach in data access. I'll be interested to see what he writes about Brazil's activities such as this.

Come on, people. Why so many people ITT automatically associating this with "spying" (really?) or even overreach? Our government aren't making requests secretly. They aren't requesting data in bulk. They aren't asking for a backdoor. They are requesting data about specific people who are suspects in a specific case. Essentially using a search warrant.

That could be true. I'd expect him to be covering something significant in his home country. Interestingly enough, one Google led me to a huge piece from his former employer:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/26/seco...

https://www.cpj.org/2012/02/attacks-on-the-press-in-2011-bra...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andersonantunes/2013/11/28/the-c...

Most interesting is the Petrobas scandal. The lead rep of government's side of the Snowden debate on Schneier's blog kept arguing spying on Brazil was legitimate, esp Petrobas. He said they're more an instrument of the state than a typical company and probably highly corrupt. That could lead to problems for the U.S. that leverage from spying could help deal with. Brazil is in process of proving him right.

So, there, I've done more to get word out to Brazilians than Greenwald has his whole time living there. :P

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