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Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

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131–140 of 198 posts

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#131
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a lot of doom and gloom about the current state of the US government all around the internet, but I have to say that this kind of thing helps me remain optimistic. A judge is free to make his or her decision without fear of coercion or some fanciful Tom Clancy-esque story unfolding as some people seem to believe things to work. The system may be flawed, but it's not broken yet.

I would feel a lot more confident about the US's overall state of corruption if the defendant in this case weren't the largest capitalized company in the world. Would this case have come to the same result (which is likely to be appealed) if it was say UnluckySmallCo. instead of Apple that was on the receiving end of the government's pressure?

I thought the defendant in this case was a drug dealer.

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#132
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems easy to rule out the "do whatever I want interpretation". If this were true, the Constitution becomes unnecessary. This is a contradiction. QED

This is super dismissive of the actual legal arguments, and basically preaching to the choir. The gov'ts interpretation is that "If the court issues a search warrant, we can coerce third parties into cooperation." A specific usage of the AWA, which basically says "The courts can coerce people to do things to enforce rulings". This leads to relatively non-controversial things like asking apartment landlords to open do…

> The controversy here from a legal standpoint is that what's being asked of Apple is too burdensome. I don't really know the constitutional argument against burden (probably the 10th, limiting the power of federal government), but there seems to be some.

There's more to it than that, and I'd argue that the primary controversy in this case, and to an extent even in the San Bernardino case (where the burden is certainly higher than here), burden isn't the primary controversy.

Basically, for the AWA to apply there are 3 statutory "tests" that have to be met that are laid out in the AWA itself, and 3 more discretionary "tests" that derive from the Supreme Court ruling in US v New York Telephone Company that control when a judge should exercise their discretion to issue an AWA writ (because these writs are never mandatory).

The statutory tests are: 1. Jurisdiction, 2. Necessity and appropriateness to aiding the court's jurisdiction, and 3. Agreeableness to the principals and usages of law.

The discretionary tests are: 1. Closesness of the target of the writ to the matter at hand (crime, civil action, etc), 2. Burden the writ imposes, and 3. Necessity (which overlaps the statutory test, but is more broadly interpreted).

This ruling doesn't just say the proposed use here of the AWA fails the burden test, it says it fails the 3rd statutory test and ALL the discretionary tests.

And this is where I'd argue the real controversy here derives from the 3rd statutory requirement. The Government's argument is, essentially, that any use of the AWA is agreeable with the usages and principles of law, as long as no law specifically forbids that use.

This is what is seen as controversially expanding the scope of the AWA to a massive degree. The Government's argument that Judges can only consider what the legislature has explicitly banned, not what the legislature failed to take up (like the fact that congress declined to give police agencies these powers in CALEA), has the effect of turning the AWA from an innocuous "paper the gaps" rule, into a statute of enormous, practically unlimited power.

As this ruling points out, if there were a law under consideration by congress that required, say, Drug Manufactures to produce lethal injection drugs, and every single member of congress voted against the law, the government's argument claims that they could still use the AWA to force a company to do exactly that and that it would be completely agreeable with the usages and principals of law, despite clearly thwarting the will of the legislature. Rather than decline to pass laws whose power congress dislikes, congress would actively have to pass laws forbidding every such power, or the AWA could be used to confer it, in the interpretation advanced by the Government here.

Essentially the interpretation the Government is advancing would require congress to blacklist everything under the sun, or its all fair game under the AWA. This interpretation, the ruling argues, would probably render the AWA unconstitutional if followed.

And that's the controversy. The Obama administration just declined to seek expanded powers encryption-thwarting powers for the FBI via the legislature. The FBI is now undertaking to "find" those same powers in an expansive new interpretation of the AWA.

tl;dr it's not just that it's too burdensome, it's that it tortures the meaning of the AWA to assume it applies this broadly to areas the legislature has already declined to grant power, the case is too narrowly connected to Apple, it's not clear that the Government has no other means it could have used to meet the goal, and it's too burdensome

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#133
post #16

This seems to be the core point here — the US Code is a whitelist, not a blacklist: "The government's position also produces a wholly different kind of absurdity: the idea that the First Congress might so thoroughly undermine fundamental principles of the Constitution that many of its members had personally just helped to write or to ratify. Its preferred reading of the law – which allows a court to confer on the exe…

Am I the only one who sees how blind it is to continue citing 18th century politicians in 2016? Can we finally deprecate the "founding fathers"?

Who would you prefer we cite, if not those who wrote the laws that are being argued?

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who sees how blind it is to continue citing 18th century politicians in 2016? Can we finally deprecate the "founding fathers"?

Who would you prefer we cite, if not those who wrote the laws that are being argued?

Time is relevant. It should not be treated like a footnote in considering the importance of certain laws. If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, I think he would have used military force against Apple, or at the very least threatened Tim Cook to a duel.

To answer your question, the judges should cite their own judgement.

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd likely argue that forcing them to sign non-Apple software as if it was their own is compelled speech.

>forcing them to sign non-Apple software as if it was their own is compelled speech. That may be. However, simply forcing them to hand over the key wouldn't imho.

To be fair, Lavabit was out of compliance with legal government orders (they had access to accounts but was withholding on moral grounds). Forcing Apple to hand over "the keys to the kingdom" so as to forge software on their behalf might still lie outside of established governmental powers.

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#136
post #124
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This modification would require having iOS source to modify, which certainly the FBI does not have. And even if they did, it would take them months from receiving the source code to be even remotely prepared to do a custom iOS build to present to Apple to be signed. Domain expertise, familiarity with a code base, and just "simple" stuff like build/release engineering and QA aren't things you put together overnight.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11153022 >You make this sound hard: there are tons of qualified people who could do this in less than a week, including myself. We already have all of these tools just sitting around from the iPhone 4, and some of us have emulators for more recent devices: the only thing we don't have is Apple's key. From the developer of cydia.

If multiple people have the know-how to make this in a week, I can't see it costing more than $25,000, probably less. (Just taking $1 million a year and dividing by 50 and rounding up, trying to get an upper bound. Presumably at least of those people are willing to sell out for a million a year, or 25k a week.)

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#137
post #16

This seems to be the core point here — the US Code is a whitelist, not a blacklist: "The government's position also produces a wholly different kind of absurdity: the idea that the First Congress might so thoroughly undermine fundamental principles of the Constitution that many of its members had personally just helped to write or to ratify. Its preferred reading of the law – which allows a court to confer on the exe…

> The government's position also produces a wholly different kind of absurdity: the idea that the First Congress might so thoroughly undermine fundamental principles of the Constitution that many of its members had personally just helped to write or to ratify. In 1798, the fifth Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Acts, which were signed by President John Adams, and were used to arrest or deport people critical of…

It's not hard to imagine that the founders intended certain principles to be respected, but later broke those principles when it benefitted them.

That's aside from that congress in 1798 probably didn't have a majority of founders etc.

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would you prefer we cite, if not those who wrote the laws that are being argued?

Time is relevant. It should not be treated like a footnote in considering the importance of certain laws. If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, I think he would have used military force against Apple, or at the very least threatened Tim Cook to a duel. To answer your question, the judges should cite their own judgement.

Hm. Maybe Adams. It was Jefferson who pardoned those Adams imprisoned for sedition.

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the one thing I really took away from (way too much) recent reading about Scalia and textual originalism - in my opinion, it's almost downright foolish to obey 'the letter' of the original law, and it's completely right of anyone asked to judge based on the law to do just that. I think it'd be kind of stupid in this case in particular and in all cases in general to ignore the context surrounding the law, both…

Textual originalism is a euphemistic smokescreen, invoked to justify a position as "true" to the original intent even when the justice in question hands down opinions with no Constitutional basis. Scalia was a master at this deception, vehemently excoriating "activist" judges while simultaneously making logical leaps like "corporations are people" and "money is speech". Textual originalism is largely a fraudulent mec…

Although agree, ...with your position, I disagree in your reasoning. Corporations are persons because they are an organized group of people established to carry out the intentions and express the views, i.e. speech, of their members. Citizens United didn't screw campaign finance laws, it affirmed a breakdown of the intention of campaign finance laws. If a company can say, "we make our parts from recycled materials, that's why we are better than our opponents," does that not constitute political speech? Should a company not be able to say that? Should a company not be able to contribute to organizations that support actions, through speech, to the benefit of the company or inline to the intentions of the people involved in the company? The decision was legally correct. The fallout is in our hands...

I personally am anoyed that, now, every purchase I make is a political statement. Or being lowered into thinking that, now, is different. Buy American!

Re: Brooklyn Judge: Feds Can't Use All Writs Act to Force Apple's Hand [pdf]

#140
post #16

This seems to be the core point here — the US Code is a whitelist, not a blacklist: "The government's position also produces a wholly different kind of absurdity: the idea that the First Congress might so thoroughly undermine fundamental principles of the Constitution that many of its members had personally just helped to write or to ratify. Its preferred reading of the law – which allows a court to confer on the exe…

Am I the only one who sees how blind it is to continue citing 18th century politicians in 2016? Can we finally deprecate the "founding fathers"?

It's a fairly basic principle that, while a law can be written in such a way that changing context is relevant to its application, it's meaning doesn't change unless a legislative act changes the law itself. So, no, when it comes to laws passed in 1789, we can't stop looking to what it meant in 1789.
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