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Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

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Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#41

Post by [deleted] »

isleyaardvark wrote: post #18
thaumaturgy wrote: post #10

My current primary business is IT consulting, which really means that I spend most of my time working face-to-face with people that have trouble with computers and technology in general. So, this kind of behavior isn't news to me. In fact, I've tried often to convince the tech-savvy that most users have problems like this, and I've never been all that successful. The RWW "Facebook login" is great from this standpoint…

"But, she's totally lost on Facebook." Is that really so bad, though? I don't know about anybody else, but I've never liked the Facebook UI. I always thought it was a confusing mess. Lite Facebook is about as close as they've gotten to something user-friendly. Granted, that's a bit different from the ridiculousness involved with the RWW post, but they're already trying to log in to a confusing website that has been c…

[deleted]

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#42

Post by pyre »

joshwa wrote: post #35
MrRage wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second that. For instance what's the difference between "Top News" and "Most Recent"? They seem to display the same stuff in a slightly different order. I'm a computer programmer and have masters degree so I don't think I'm dumb...

Most Recent displays EVERYTHING (like News Feed used to). Top News filters things by ann algorithm that weights by the amount of comments/likes, among other things.

Wouldn't "All Posts" and "Popular Posts" be more descriptive?

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#43

Post by patio11 »

jpd wrote: post #11
natemartin wrote: post #2

This is fascinating... apparently users are just typing "facebook login" into google, clicking on the first link, and getting very confused as to why they're not actually on facebook. How can you design a web application that is usable by people with this level of computer knowledge? Should one even try?

Answer: You can't, and no, you shouldn't try. You have to assume your users actually have the ability to get to your website before you can worry about what they do when they get there. Sorry, but this whole thing is a whole new level of idiocy I had not previously encountered: Even my mother (whose sole computer skill is that she can get to amazon.com to buy gifts for people) would be able to determine whether or no…

You have to assume your users actually have the ability to get to your website before you can worry about what they do when they get there.

Yes, but for most businesses you'll want them to be able to get back too, and that is non-trivial and worth optimizing for.

Get their email address and send them opt-in lifecycle emails. This is, far and away, the best alternative.

Have them bookmark your site. Many of them will not understand bookmarks. Teach them to understand.

SEO for whatever users thing your business name is. If you think your app is called Foobar and users think your app is called Fubar then you had better be at the top of the results for [fubar], too.

Get desktop/dock/launch bar real estate. (Desktop apps: not dead yet! They can still open websites. :))

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#44

Post by pyre »

patio11 wrote: post #15
natemartin wrote: post #2

This is fascinating... apparently users are just typing "facebook login" into google, clicking on the first link, and getting very confused as to why they're not actually on facebook. How can you design a web application that is usable by people with this level of computer knowledge? Should one even try?

You relentlessly simplify. You collect data and look for errors or opportunities for misunderstanding, then eliminate them. You tell people how to succeed with the app three times. You make the defaults close to success. You aggressively segment your users, giving the hard stuff only to those that can handle it. You provide an easy way to talk to you and pipe that straight to the dev team to automate or eliminate res…

I think that the point is that there is not a single product at work here, but multiple products from different vendors. Facebook can't improve their interface to make users not type "facebook login" into Google as a way of accessing their site.

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#45

Post by Groxx »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #38
Groxx wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to them, the directions, or that pop up, is just more words on the screen. It's one of the main problems with user interface for the really tech-inept. It's a fundamentally hard problem, because you don't know what they're expecting, and you can't predict it 100% of the time. That said though, most programmery-types are problem-solvers at heart, and would be looking for information when their car broke down. Many…

Yeah. I get where you're coming from, but my attitude's changed a bit over the last couple of years because of my business. I now think that most of those people aren't really uninquisitive, they're just busy. They have more pressing concerns than some new tech toy or gadget. I've even noticed myself getting to be that way, which I don't like. For example, when Windows 7 was coming out, I didn't think, "Oh neat, some…

Which is certainly valid. But one would think that this magic box that holds all your financial data, (for many) all your work, and is used to get an enormous amount of your amusement would be worth understanding in even a rudimentary way. Especially since being completely ignorant of safe practices is catastrophically dangerous. People learn how to use their cars for just such a reason, and they spend less time in them than most do on their computer.

It's laziness. There's no other excuse. When that sets in for too long, it becomes denial of being capable of learning. Learning the newest stuff, being an early adopter etc? Hell no, you can't know everything. Other things in life are important too, and should be more important than computer-stuff for most.

But knowing something isn't just good for you, it's essential. Getting from zero to 0.1 should be at the top of their priority lists.

(I should point out that I really love working with UI/UX stuff, and I in no way believe that things can't be easier, even by far. I even enjoy fighting that perpetually-hard problem. But there's no helping the intentionally-ignorant, and I don't believe in making excuses for them.)

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#46

Post by robryan »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #32
fragmede wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a terrible cook, but if I was baking a cake, and used laundry detergent instead of flour (I mean, they're both white and powdery...) I'd absolutely deserve any comments about my (lack-of) intelligence. The "News results for facebook login" section on Google is very clearly marked, with, umm, well theres a picture, and a bit of indentation? In this case, I must lay some blame on Google for putting laundry detergen…

This isn't Google's fault. In Firefox, if you type a non-address directly into the address bar, it automagically directs you to the top Google hit for that query. The real failure here is Mozilla, for releasing a "feature" that, as usual, appeals to computer power users, and royally fucks over computer novices.

In this case novices which assume it is the all powerful magic bar which they can type anything into and it will take them where they want to go.

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#47

Post by denkfaul »

pyre wrote: post #42
joshwa wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Recent displays EVERYTHING (like News Feed used to). Top News filters things by ann algorithm that weights by the amount of comments/likes, among other things.

Wouldn't "All Posts" and "Popular Posts" be more descriptive?

"Posts" in this context isn't a word that most people would grok. "Popular news" isn't clear, while "Top news" does make sense next to "All news"

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#48

Post by pyre »

patio11 wrote: post #43
jpd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: You can't, and no, you shouldn't try. You have to assume your users actually have the ability to get to your website before you can worry about what they do when they get there. Sorry, but this whole thing is a whole new level of idiocy I had not previously encountered: Even my mother (whose sole computer skill is that she can get to amazon.com to buy gifts for people) would be able to determine whether or no…

You have to assume your users actually have the ability to get to your website before you can worry about what they do when they get there. Yes, but for most businesses you'll want them to be able to get back too, and that is non-trivial and worth optimizing for. Get their email address and send them opt-in lifecycle emails. This is, far and away, the best alternative. Have them bookmark your site. Many of them will…

> Have them bookmark your site. Many of them will not understand bookmarks. Teach them to understand.

Isn't that really advocating that each and every website on the internet should teach their users basic computer skills?

I mean if these people had bought a magazine from the news stand, and it said "Popular Mechanics" instead of "Playboy" on it, do you think that they would just say to themselves, "I guess that Playboy changed their name, logo, and stopped showing pictures of naked women. Interesting. I'll have to tell me friends about this?"

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#49

Post by cgranade »

ubernostrum wrote: post #31
autarch wrote: post #6

I'm sure _most_ Facebook users don't do this, but enough do to make for great hilarity in this particular case. This is all hilarious, but there's no reason to assume it's statistically significant.

Seeing as this phenomenon -- even to the point of people literally typing URLs into Google and then clicking the first result -- is old, well-known and well-documented, I'm gonna guess you need to broaden your usability reading. Here, for example, is an article from 2007 pointing out that the top search term on Google was... "Yahoo": http://www.dailydomainer.com/200742-yahoo-top-search-term-on... Here's Jeremy Zawodn…

Maybe users that type in actual addresses are in the minority, but then I consider this to be a basic literacy issue, just as I consider it a failure of basic science literacy when people say that lasers work by focusing sound waves (http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2010/01/public_knowledge_...). The Internet has had a transformative effect on society, and to not even know the first thing about it represents a failure of the educational system to prepare people to participate in what is now a very connected world.

Re: Daring Fireball: "Facebook login"

#50

Post by patio11 »

pyre wrote: post #44
patio11 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You relentlessly simplify. You collect data and look for errors or opportunities for misunderstanding, then eliminate them. You tell people how to succeed with the app three times. You make the defaults close to success. You aggressively segment your users, giving the hard stuff only to those that can handle it. You provide an easy way to talk to you and pipe that straight to the dev team to automate or eliminate res…

I think that the point is that there is not a single product at work here, but multiple products from different vendors. Facebook can't improve their interface to make users not type "facebook login" into Google as a way of accessing their site.

That is a failure of the imagination. They certainly could -- whether it is worth doing or not is another question, but hey, that is what God gave us A/B testing to figure out.

"Hey user, it looks like you came to us today from Google searching for [Facebook login]. Did you know that there is a better way? Type facebook.com into [blah blah blah]. Try it now and we'll give you 5 free credits for [without loss of generality: FarmVille]!"

"Great job! You should do that every time. If you do that to log into Facebook the next five days you use the service, we'll award you a Facebook Diploma and give you another 10 free credits for [without loss of generality: FarmVille]!"

On the back end, you show the above prompts to N% of your users who you detect coming to the login page from Google search results (this is trivial -- check the referer). You then compare any user metric you want for the "Was Shown Facebook Login Course" population and "Complete Facebook Login Course" population with the population at large. Kill the test if it hurts your metrics, deploy it sitewide if it helps them.

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