Live data from Hacker News

San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

nytimes.com

11–20 of 64 posts

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#11
Housing and the homeless topics keep coming up on HN and in my social circles. It's frustrating.

My real frustration is in fact with our cities are incentivizing businesses to create jobs while not creating more housing supply nor using that capital to improve our city like solve homelessness. This is unethical and despicable.

The city is not run by the techies who work here. The city is run by rich companies AND entrenched groups.

Entrenched groups are the older long-time homeowners looking to push the value of their own homes, the non-profit communities that want to protect their neighborhood's culture and the longtime renters who want to keep their rent control. There are countless entrenched players who push the status quo and the majority of them don't have that much money. Whether you agree that "keeping neighborhood culture" is important or not, we must first acknowledge that doing so is contributing in some way to housing prices.

I believe rich companies are not inherently evil. Many wish to help their employees by encouraging cities to build new housing alongside their new offices. However, when push comes to shove, companies will prioritize their office over new housing projects. New offices are also a lot easier to sell to many of the entrenched players.

How do we combat this all? We vote! Oh wait...

Unfortunately, those who have recently moved here (who tend to be techies) tend not to vote and many cannot simply because they haven't yet lived here long enough. Additionally, those who commute (most people) cannot vote in the locations where may be truly relevant. For example, if I work at Twitter but live in Oakland, I cannot vote to encourage more housing to be built in San Francisco.

The other big problem that many ignore is that many of us cannot vote in cities because frankly, we're not American. At last I counted there are over 250,000 Canadians alone that live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Don't forget all the other TN, H-1Bs, L-2, non-visa aliens and families that live (and more than likely, rent) here. The Bay Area likely has the most non-voting capable residents in the US. I would guess that up to 10% of Bay area residents cannot vote.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#12
post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

How many homeless people have you talked to? In my (anecdotal) experience just chatting with people, there are plenty of “lost my job and now I’m homeless” folks in SF. These tend to be a bit less visible than the mentally ill though.

More generally, many homeless people become mentally unstable or take up mind-altering substances after a while living on the street. It’s a really stressful, socially alientating situation, and in general the folks who end up homeless are those with less family/friend support. When you’re stuck feeling like a social outcast with no particular purpose, under the daily stress of figuring out how to eat, find a bathroom, sleep, shower, etc., it’s hard for even the toughest person to stay mentally sharp and optimistic.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#13
post #9

Meanwhile, houses in Detroit can be purchased for the cost of a month's rent in SF. The solution is obvious, no? It seems that people want so badly to live in some of the nation's most expensive real estate that they are willing to be homeless. That's a choice. The quarter billion spent on them is an enabler. It encourages them to stay homeless.

Are you suggesting bussing all of the homeless to Detroit?

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#14
post #9

Meanwhile, houses in Detroit can be purchased for the cost of a month's rent in SF. The solution is obvious, no? It seems that people want so badly to live in some of the nation's most expensive real estate that they are willing to be homeless. That's a choice. The quarter billion spent on them is an enabler. It encourages them to stay homeless.

I get your point, but Detroit is a really bad example. Who would want to live with undrinkable water and the highest murder rate in the country, with essentially no municipal services, in a house so run down that it'd be condemned in any other city?

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#15
post #9

Meanwhile, houses in Detroit can be purchased for the cost of a month's rent in SF. The solution is obvious, no? It seems that people want so badly to live in some of the nation's most expensive real estate that they are willing to be homeless. That's a choice. The quarter billion spent on them is an enabler. It encourages them to stay homeless.

Homeless flock to SF because it's very tolerant of them relative to many other cities (some of which actually bus their mentally ill to SF), and the conditions are moderate enough that they aren't fighting off hypothermia. It has nothing to do with their desire to live on the curb in front of expensive real estate.

I don't know that you understand the problem at all if you refer to it as a choice. Particularly if you think the alternative choice is home ownership in abandoned areas of the country's most troubled city. Owning some empty, stripped-apart house in Detroit doesn't solve anybody's problems and certainly doesn't eliminate the cost of supporting the downtrodden. Many people in Detroit who have skills aren't finding employment and are barely surviving. A property title doesn't fill your stomach day after day. And the 4-figure houses you refer to are that way because they represent more liability than asset. They need massive investment to make them liveable.

Your comment is frankly ignorant.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#16
post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

> They simply cannot take care of themselves.

And no one else wants to, which is part of the problem.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#17
post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category.

I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support services can put them back on their feet without drastic improvements to the housing crisis in San Francisco. Furthermore, the mentally ill make everyone (especially those homeless who have fallen on hard times) less safe.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#18
post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

I suggest looking at the official data on this subject[1]. The vast majority of San Francisco's homeless people are, in fact, people who were living in SF and paying rent, lost one or more jobs, and subsequently became homeless. I would also suggest you read the literature[2] concerning "putting people in a mental institution" against their will, because that practice has a long and sordid history and there are many,…

Thanks for sharing those links. I'll definitely look into them in more detail. At a cursory glance I'm not sure that the data necessarily contradicts 1024core's statement. A disturbingly high number of respondents cites having one or more health conditions, such as Drug or Alcohol Abuse (37%), Pyschiatric or Emotional Conditions (35%) and PTSD (27%).

At the same time, to your point, the number of people on the streets due to evictions has also markedly increased over the last years, so there are probably multiple things going on.

I'd imagine that (as usual) the problems are complex. For instance, respondents say they're on the street because they lost their job (25%) or because family or friends asked them to leave (12%), but it doesn't mention if there's an underlying reason for that. For example, some of these people might have lost their job due to substance abuse. I'm not saying that's the case for everyone, just trying to say that the situation is complex.

Similarly I'd imagine there's a vicious cycle where once you're living on the street it's difficult to break out of it. Living on the street makes it difficult to get a job, which in turn makes it hard to get a home. Substance abuse is probably more likely if you're living on the street, again making it more difficult to get a job and a home. If you have a mental illness and you voluntarily sought mental care, it's difficult to stick with it if you also have a drug addiction.

Again, thanks for posting those links. I also live in SF and I find the homeless situation tragic. It saddens me that very few people seem interested in discussing the problem beyond black and white opinions and simple soundbites.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#19

Housing and the homeless topics keep coming up on HN and in my social circles. It's frustrating. My real frustration is in fact with our cities are incentivizing businesses to create jobs while not creating more housing supply nor using that capital to improve our city like solve homelessness. This is unethical and despicable. The city is not run by the techies who work here. The city is run by rich companies AND ent…

I live in SF and the problem with housing here is that although the residential neighborhoods are very extended (think of the Richmond), most of the residential buildings are 2/3 story houses that cannot accomodate many people.

We need to start replacing these little residential houses with 10 story buildings. There is nowhere else to build, we need to start upgrading the existing buildings.

Will that change the city? Well yes, but cities evolve and some of the houses built after the earthquake are anachronistic and of out place in this time.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#20
post #10

This is very similar to the homeless situation where I live. We had to recently break up a camp in one of the beach communities too. Many, many drug addicts (especially meth) and mentally ill (possibly due to drugs). Simply providing shelter is not the solution imo. The challenge is so much bigger than that. Drug rehab services need to be provided or even required. The easy access to drugs also needs to be addressed.…

This is directly contrary to what has been found to work in practice. Mental illness and drug addiction can take years to treat successfully, and it's impossible to treat people who don't live in a fixed location. "Housing first" policies treat housing as the first priority, necessary for even gaining access to help people with other problems.

Without housing, many of these people gradually become worse off and eventually die. Housing should be treated as a human right, without any special conditions imposed.

Post reply on HN