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Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

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Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about the government being able to compel some action. Where it gets tricky with Apple is around the argument that code is speech. The government can compel an entity to do something, but they typically can't compel them to say something. Even though this is incredibly unlikely, say for a moment that Apple has only hired developers that feel strongly that privacy is an inalienable right. If Tim Cook con…

What about bank employees who feel strongly that financial privacy is an inalienable right? Do they get to avoid complying with government investigations into tax evasion or money laundering? I see your code is speech point. I'm skeptical about it, because usually code is just code. It's meant to do something, not to express an idea . But I think there is some merit to the idea that code signing combines doing someth…

There are many issues here which have thus far been conducted in a legal or nebulous grey area of the law or flown under the notice of the general public for far too long:

Can the government compel the creation of original tools and IP outside the typical operations of a business? If so should they be required to compensate the business? Does the business then own the IP or the government? What happens when compelling a company to create IP or perform process outside of its typical operations is a net loss regardless of compensation? Should it be required to notify stockholders? Is it legal to make investments based on this PARTICULAR kind of inside government information? What if the entire company's operation may be plausibly undermined by the operation?

I think a more relevant example here would be whether the government could compel a bank or financial company to create or alter its financial reporting tools to falsify data or misreport to the subject of an investigation.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#222
post #22

From recent polls most people think this debate is about: "Should Apple be forced to give the Terrorist's phone data to the FBI" When what it's really about: "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." In order for the public to be properly informed about what's really at stake this case needs to be about the "Technology Indus…

> "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." We can put the case into an even larger context and ask: should the FBI be able to compel [banks, accounting firms, insurance companies] to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to financial privacy? The answer to date, has been "yes." The right of the jus…

Isn't the difference that the banks already have access to and collect this data and Apple does not currently have access to this data and it would not normally collected in the course of business activity?

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#223
post #121

Aren't Microsoft working with NSA? is this just a publicity stunt?

Are you implying that Apple, Facebook, and Google aren't?

The skeptic in my wants to say they all are, but everyone is praising Apple for some reason

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#224

The whole Apple/FBI fracas is about promoting smartphones as the centre of our universe: the confluence of medical, financial, and all other personal information. If Apple can convince us that smartphones are secure, there are lucrative opportunities for smartphone technology to become ubiquitous and pervasive in our lives. Unfortunately, it will always be necessary for law enforcement to have access to bad guys' stu…

No one builds doors to make them especially vulnerable to the police. Why should phones be any different?

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read their motion?[1] It is very much part of their argument. It sets a precedent that not only will other US courts compel them to unlock devices, but other countries will as well. Even if you trust the US government to not use the software maliciously, do you trust other governments? 1) https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2722199-5-15-MJ-0045...

What's stopping other governments from compelling then to unlock phones now, given they've effectively said they can. What's stopping rogue employees from selling that capability - is Apple Computer's internal security good enough to see off espionage by nation states?

They've already asked and Apple has had a strong bargaining position.

"Beijing last year backed off on some proposals that would have required foreign companies to provide encryption keys for devices sold in the country after facing pressure from foreign trade groups."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/21/technology/apple-sees-valu...

If Apple were to allow this for the US government other governments will want the same.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about bank employees who feel strongly that financial privacy is an inalienable right? Do they get to avoid complying with government investigations into tax evasion or money laundering? I see your code is speech point. I'm skeptical about it, because usually code is just code. It's meant to do something, not to express an idea . But I think there is some merit to the idea that code signing combines doing someth…

There are many issues here which have thus far been conducted in a legal or nebulous grey area of the law or flown under the notice of the general public for far too long: Can the government compel the creation of original tools and IP outside the typical operations of a business? If so should they be required to compensate the business? Does the business then own the IP or the government? What happens when compellin…

My understanding is the government is generally supposed to pay for the cost of external requests to private entities, should they choose to bill for it.... Unfortunately, the cost of compliance for Apple is lost future revenue, not just the technical costs of the gimped iOS version.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#227
post #219
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thing is, if privacy advocates lose this fight, we have a greater chance of losing the next one." I don't think that's true, but even if I'm wrong, you could say that about any skirmish in the privacy debate. Every legal case sets some precedent that affects the next one. Also, I don't agree that this is government overreach. This case seems about as clear-cut an example of a "good" investigatory behavior as we'…

There isn't a valid warrant in this case though: instead there's a writ (aka an order by the government) under the All Writs Act. This act allows the government to compel a person/company to do something when there isn't any specific law on the books for that particular situation. However, the writ in question is to compel Apple to write a new version of the OS (not to hand over keys, not to hand over data in their p…

No, you're completely wrong. There's a valid warrant. The owner of the phone also consents to the search. Apple's refusal has nothing to do with any of that.

What's happening here is that Apple is claiming that it can't comply with the warrant, because encryption. The FBI is invoking the All Writs Act to try to compel Apple to brute force the weak password on the phone.

http://fortune.com/2016/02/18/fbi-iphone/

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#228
post #22

From recent polls most people think this debate is about: "Should Apple be forced to give the Terrorist's phone data to the FBI" When what it's really about: "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." In order for the public to be properly informed about what's really at stake this case needs to be about the "Technology Indus…

> "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." We can put the case into an even larger context and ask: should the FBI be able to compel [banks, accounting firms, insurance companies] to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to financial privacy? The answer to date, has been "yes." The right of the jus…

You keep using Banks as an analogy. It fails because Banks are used to drilling out locks on flimsy safe-deposit boxes, Apple is not used to hacking old phones via firmware updates.

Nobody is saying the government can't attempt to unlock the phone - or even compel Apple to provide technical information. But that's not what the FBI wants. They want to force Apple to take all the risk.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#229
post #22

From recent polls most people think this debate is about: "Should Apple be forced to give the Terrorist's phone data to the FBI" When what it's really about: "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." In order for the public to be properly informed about what's really at stake this case needs to be about the "Technology Indus…

This strikes me as a great opportunity to use the "think of the children" argument against the government. Headlines should read like this: "FBI wants ability to steal dick pics from any iPhone, including children's phones! "

I think you may want to rethink your soundbite. Heh.

But yeah, remember the scandal about school admins potentially being able to use the laptop's anti-theft programs to spy on children? Imagine that for all children worldwide.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#230
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if privacy advocates lose this fight, we have a greater chance of losing the next one. I agree it should be the user's job and not Apple's to enforce security, however I also think that is something that we can focus on later. We can both support Apple now in this fight against government overreach and put pressure on them later to make their phone securable by the user. Those two ideas are not mutually…

"The thing is, if privacy advocates lose this fight, we have a greater chance of losing the next one." I don't think that's true, but even if I'm wrong, you could say that about any skirmish in the privacy debate. Every legal case sets some precedent that affects the next one. Also, I don't agree that this is government overreach. This case seems about as clear-cut an example of a "good" investigatory behavior as we'…

But that's just an outrage line. Not a necessity line. There's no ticking time-bomb.

Nobody expects to get anything from the phone. It's the guy's work phone and they already have all the call logs, etc.

I hear that you're willing to trade liberty for safety, but what safety do you expect to get and are you considering any costs?

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