Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

bloomberg.com

211–220 of 261 posts

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#211

I (, in a non facetious manner) honestly don't get this. Aren't all of the above listed giants the ones that are going out of their way to track, spam and use our personal lives as objects of advertisement in the first place? How or why are they petitioning for the government to not be able to do what they're already doing? Isn't that completely ironic? Is this a case of "it's okay if /WE/ steal your data, but we don…

It's quite simple.

Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, et al. do not have the power to arrest you, and never will. They can't find out you said or did something in the past and put you in a gulag for it 10 or 20 years from now when you're considered a political enemy of the state.

It's the critical difference between economic and political power. Google has no guns, much less the all-powerful legal authority - and then some - possessed by the government.

Microsoft can sell you software. Amazon can sell you a blender or ebook. Apple wants to sell you a phone. The US Government can kill you, destroy your life, put you on a no-fly list, proclaim you a terrorist to be constantly surveilled to the highest degree, punish you for speaking out, sic the IRS on you, blackmail you by tracking every single thing you do digitally without any consequences to themselves and then use it against you at their convenience or for their benefit (Google execs would go to prison for that), and dozens of other things using their countless agencies (and if you happen to be a leaker or journalist, the context is that much more amplified). And that's just what they can do to you today, the fascism in America is blatantly going to keep getting worse, they keep reaching for more and more power. Tomorrow, the things you do today, will be held against you. There isn't an example of a fascist system in which that hasn't been the case.

Google et al. are the absolute least of your worries. The free market profit motive is predictable and functions at its most efficient under systems of high degrees of freedom (thus free market). Increasing political power of the sort going on in the US however is always violent and always trends toward an ultimate restriction of liberty. One need understand only the very basics of history to grasp that.

A quick look at what governments have done over just the last 200 years, versus what corporations have done, tells you everything you need to know. It isn't a close comparison. Show me one modern big corporation like Google that has done the kind of evil things that eg Mugabe in Zimbabwe has done for example - there's one simple example, and hardly the worst I could reference (how about Pol Pot?), and it demonstrates how clearly absurd it is to be frightened by the 'big bad corporations.' The notion we need to be afraid of corporations is almost entirely a myth, typically pushed by people that then turn an intentional blind eye to the endless murder, war and abuse by governments. It's power-seeking governments you should be absolutely terrified of.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open doesn't mean it's an unlocked door. Open means that the owner of the device can replace the firmware. There's nothing not-open about requiring that the owner authenticate first. It's only not open if the vendor, rather than the owner, is the only one who the device will permit to replace its firmware.

> means that the owner of the device can replace the firmware It means that a small minority of owners of the device can replace the firmware. Most people don't have the resources to do something like that.

Most people don't have the resources, knowledge, or desire to replace their car's engine parts. Does that mean it's ok to sell a car with a locked hood, that requires a manufacturer-controlled key before the engine can be serviced?

No, even if they personally don't want to touch the engine, they turn to knowledgeable friends/family or pay a professional mechanic to do the work.

This unfortunately-common view that most people should never even have the option to do anything technical is insulting and maybe even monopolistic (it bans 3rd party repairs/parts).

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#213
post #174
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they could make a case that it violates the HIPAA, since your heartbeat/activity tracker info is on the device? Kind of a weak argument, but HIPAA is a pretty contentious subject.

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that HIPAA privacy rules only apply to healthcare providers like hospitals and their employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Portability_a...

This is correct. We ran a website for diabetics where users volunteered health data and HIPAA didn't apply to us. If it coordinated data exchange with doctors directly then it would be different.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#214
post #22

From recent polls most people think this debate is about: "Should Apple be forced to give the Terrorist's phone data to the FBI" When what it's really about: "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." In order for the public to be properly informed about what's really at stake this case needs to be about the "Technology Indus…

> "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." We can put the case into an even larger context and ask: should the FBI be able to compel [banks, accounting firms, insurance companies] to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to financial privacy? The answer to date, has been "yes." The right of the jus…

You are right about the government being able to compel some action. Where it gets tricky with Apple is around the argument that code is speech. The government can compel an entity to do something, but they typically can't compel them to say something.

Even though this is incredibly unlikely, say for a moment that Apple has only hired developers that feel strongly that privacy is an inalienable right. If Tim Cook concedes to the FBI and gives the order that a hacked version of iOS is to be created, what happens if his developers refuse? Would Tim Cook be put in jail, or would the developers be jailed on contempt of court charges?

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#215

The whole Apple/FBI fracas is about promoting smartphones as the centre of our universe: the confluence of medical, financial, and all other personal information. If Apple can convince us that smartphones are secure, there are lucrative opportunities for smartphone technology to become ubiquitous and pervasive in our lives. Unfortunately, it will always be necessary for law enforcement to have access to bad guys' stu…

> The Fourth Amendment guarantees your privacy, but police can break down your door and seize your financial and medical records if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you. Why should your smartphone be different?

This is a false dichotomy. Simply because technology creates a situation where governments can't access a users data without the user consent. Apple's technology hadn't reached this point in this case (aka end-to-end encryption), which is why we're even having this conversation but we've arguably passed that point as an industry where that will be the future legal environment.

It's entirely plausible Apple could create an iPhone that they can't unlock, or iMessages they can't read. So then it's no longer about coercing middlemen but the US gov vs user consent. Outside of self-incrimination this changes the legal question to be about unlocking every persons medical/financial records, not about unlocking a single persons.

The only path the government has is to coerce Apple into making backdoors or purposefully weakening their encryption for all devices which affects every Americans fourth amendment rights - as well as public saftey.

Therefore this is not just about one person in a criminal trial - since a backdoor can never be made only for a single court case, it will by nature unlock the phones to any party who can create or get access to the backdoor.

So the only legal path for the government is to either coerce suspects into self-incrimination by forcing them to unlock their phones or prevent Apple/Google/etc customers from being able to meaningfully lock their phones in the first place. The problem with the latter is that criminals/terrorists won't be forced to use the backdoored Apple/Google/etc technology but can use open-source versions with encryption to side-step law enforcement's efforts - making it ultimately ineffective as a legal strategy.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Should the FBI be able to compel technology companies to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to Security." We can put the case into an even larger context and ask: should the FBI be able to compel [banks, accounting firms, insurance companies] to use their resources against their own and their Customers right to financial privacy? The answer to date, has been "yes." The right of the jus…

You are right about the government being able to compel some action. Where it gets tricky with Apple is around the argument that code is speech. The government can compel an entity to do something, but they typically can't compel them to say something. Even though this is incredibly unlikely, say for a moment that Apple has only hired developers that feel strongly that privacy is an inalienable right. If Tim Cook con…

What about bank employees who feel strongly that financial privacy is an inalienable right? Do they get to avoid complying with government investigations into tax evasion or money laundering?

I see your code is speech point. I'm skeptical about it, because usually code is just code. It's meant to do something, not to express an idea. But I think there is some merit to the idea that code signing combines doing something (enabling code to be loaded) and communicating an idea (that the signer trusts the code). It's an interesting argument, certainly.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> means that the owner of the device can replace the firmware It means that a small minority of owners of the device can replace the firmware. Most people don't have the resources to do something like that.

The resources required to replace the firmware on a non-crippled Android device is access to the Internet from that device. This is not a big ask. Most people who own an iPhone have a data plan and/or access to WiFi. Sure, only a small minority of device owners can actually make new firmware, but fortunately only one of them needs to make and distribute some firmware for everyone to be able to install it, if the devi…

Are you saying this as someone who has helped non-hobbyists install new firmware onto their phones? I haven't, but helped many people install desktop linux around 2008-2009 and was often surprised by the problems they ran into.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about the government being able to compel some action. Where it gets tricky with Apple is around the argument that code is speech. The government can compel an entity to do something, but they typically can't compel them to say something. Even though this is incredibly unlikely, say for a moment that Apple has only hired developers that feel strongly that privacy is an inalienable right. If Tim Cook con…

What about bank employees who feel strongly that financial privacy is an inalienable right? Do they get to avoid complying with government investigations into tax evasion or money laundering? I see your code is speech point. I'm skeptical about it, because usually code is just code. It's meant to do something, not to express an idea . But I think there is some merit to the idea that code signing combines doing someth…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/02/26...

Apple has made the claim that code-is-speech. From that article:

> Wayne Giampietro, a Chicago-based lawyer and longtime member of the First Amendment Lawyer's Association, said that Apple is absolutely on solid ground with its argument.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#219
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if privacy advocates lose this fight, we have a greater chance of losing the next one. I agree it should be the user's job and not Apple's to enforce security, however I also think that is something that we can focus on later. We can both support Apple now in this fight against government overreach and put pressure on them later to make their phone securable by the user. Those two ideas are not mutually…

"The thing is, if privacy advocates lose this fight, we have a greater chance of losing the next one." I don't think that's true, but even if I'm wrong, you could say that about any skirmish in the privacy debate. Every legal case sets some precedent that affects the next one. Also, I don't agree that this is government overreach. This case seems about as clear-cut an example of a "good" investigatory behavior as we'…

There isn't a valid warrant in this case though: instead there's a writ (aka an order by the government) under the All Writs Act. This act allows the government to compel a person/company to do something when there isn't any specific law on the books for that particular situation.

However, the writ in question is to compel Apple to write a new version of the OS (not to hand over keys, not to hand over data in their possession, not to provide technical support to the FBI - all of which are things Apple has done when presented with a valid warrant).

From Apple's motion to vacate:

"In the section of CALEA entitled “Design of features and systems configurations,” 47 U.S.C. § 1002(b)(1), the statute says that it “does not authorize any law enforcement agency or officer —

(1) to require any specific design of equipment, facilities, services, features, or system configurations to be adopted by any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, any manufacturer of telecommunications equipment, or any provider of telecommunications support services.

(2) to prohibit the adoption of any equipment, facility, service, or feature by any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, any manufacturer of telecommunications equipment, or any provider of telecommunications support services."

So the writ appears to be in direct contradiction to other law, which would make it an invalid use of the All Writs Act.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Facebook Back Apple in Blocked Phone Case

#220
post #190
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bloomberg changed their title, so we changed it too.

Thank. I must admit I thought the original title a little inflammatory. The key point is the amicus brief supporting Apple, which in hindsight should have formed the title.

> I thought the original title a little inflammatory

In that case it's good to change it. From the guidelines: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." Inflammatory is usually linkbait.

When changing a title to make it more accurate or neutral, it's best to use a subtitle or a representative phrase from the article.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Post reply on HN