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Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

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Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#91

Post by simondlr »

kang wrote: post #52

Previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987142 Give me any ethereum use-case & I'll tell you how to do it with bitcoin. Is it advantageous if a DSL is turing complete? It is not that bitcoin 'cannot have' a turing complete script but that it is unsafe & there is no need to do so. Turing completeness can be applied on an upper abstraction. There is nothing that ethereum can do that bitcoin cannot! Th…

> Give me any ethereum use-case & I'll tell you how to do it with bitcoin.

A dapp reaching into the state of another dapp.

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#92

Post by waterlesscloud »

pipermerriam wrote: post #88
kang wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have both bitcoin & ether apart from hundred other coins; earning profit is different from technical merit. I spent a long time studying ethereum as a promise for something incredible but in the end I realized its just the power of blockchains & can be done using bitcoin too. What I do not like in ethereum is the nature of origin of ether which makes it just an IPO coin.

> Give me any ethereum use-case & I'll tell you how to do it with bitcoin. I'm failing to see your point. Does the fact that things are possible with bitcoin make the technical merits of Ethereum less in some way? > What I do not like in ethereum is the nature of origin of ether which makes it just an IPO coin. The "makes it just an IPO coin" statement also seems to discount any of the technical merits of the platfor…

This is the sort of discussion I have zero interest in taking part in personally.

Facts on the ground are already overtaking misinformed opinions, so why bother arguing?

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#93

Post by mbgaxyz »

teraflop wrote: post #13

The article is pretty light on technical details. Does Ethereum suffer from the same design limitation as Bitcoin, where every operation must be verified by every node? If so, I have a really hard time believing it will scale. Look how much difficulty the Bitcoin network is having with just a couple of transactions per second.

There are fundamental problems with Ethereum which are not addressed in the article.

* No guarantee of transaction execution

* Turing-complete smart contracts are slow

* Scaling is a moonshot

* Oracles break the trust model

* Public blockchains struggle to stay decentralized

More here:

https://makebitcoingreatagain.wordpress.com/2016/02/10/5-cha...

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#95

Post by imglorp »

shanehoban wrote: post #9

I get spammed daily on Reddit from bots supporting Ethereum (currency) - so the name causes hatred for me already.

There are speculators on all the blockchains, even on the chains not designated as currencies. They irritate and demoralize the developers with their trolling and hostility over unsatisfactory chain exchange rates--the only thing they're invested in--while the developers are merely attempting to build distributed apps to benefit society. These are the same breed of asshole who have ruined wall street, college sports, and anything else they can bet on.

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#96

Post by pipermerriam »

joshuakarjala wrote: post #48

Have built a demo app with Ethereum in November. The tooling was ok, but not amazing. IMO one of the main problems is that you need trusted inputs for most "interesting" or "valuable" computations.

Developing on the platform right now is akin to writing software to run on a VM that has no operating system. The services that are being written right now can be thought of as the operating system (foundation) that everything that will come next is built on. To do the really interesting stuff you have to first build all of the really low level tooling to support it.

There's a lot of talk about replacing Uber/AirBnB/Facebook/etc with decentralized applications but I believe those things are still at least a few years away. Complex applications like those are going to require significant base infrastructure that just doesn't exist yet.

The "Trusted" inputs problem is complex and I don't believe there will be a single solution. Some applications will be fine using trusted oracles. Others will need a more trustless model which is going to require on-chain reputation systems which in-turn is going to require some level of identity/anti-sybil system.

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#97

Post by whypeoplepeople »

Uptrenda wrote: post #51

Crypto has come a long way since Ethereum was first conceived and what was impossible only a few months ago is now 100% practical. Today there are A LOT of new techniques that allow us to largely implement decentralized autonomous applications on any blockchain (no matter how limited) - a fact I feel often gets missed out in all of the Ethereum hype. If you have a lot a techniques like zero-knowledge proofs, homomorp…

There were tons of techniques to preserve home-made foods - canning, vacuum drying, salt curing, fermentation, etc. - and then someone invented the fridge. What is widely adopted?

As an average developer, I can launch a smart contract with 20 lines of code in Ethereum. I have no idea in earth how to even start writing those things on classic blockchains, let alone prove they work as I expect.

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#98

Post by crazydoggers »

kang wrote: post #81
crazydoggers wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give me any ethereum use-case & I'll tell you how to do it with bitcoin That's like saying give me any HTTP use-case, and I'll tell you how to do it with Gopher. To me Rootstock is like putting the WWW on top of Gopher. You can do it, but why? "We don't need GUIs, command lines can do everything!" "We don't need Java/Python/Ruby, you can do it all in C!" "We don't need C, you can do it all Assembly!" Ease of develo…

You are right, ease of use matters but it is so because ether was sold and got a lot of money whereas no such body exists in bitcoin. With that money ethereum could fund coding. That is a good thing unless the whole point of the system is decentralization. This is similar to Amazon selling AWScoin and launching a SETI-like software so anyone can run their system as an AWS server & earn AWScoins.

I'm not sure what you're arguing? Ethereum is fully decentralized and open source. There happens to be a well funded non-profit that the community funded in order to speed up development (EthDEV). Ethereum and EthDEV are not one in the same thing. If EthDEV disappeared, ethereum would continue. That's a little different than some Amazon owned and operated "AWScoin".

Bitcoin also has the "Bitcoin Foundation" which employs lead developer Gavin Andresen, so it's very similar.

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#99

Post by vonklaus »

Uptrenda wrote: post #51

Crypto has come a long way since Ethereum was first conceived and what was impossible only a few months ago is now 100% practical. Today there are A LOT of new techniques that allow us to largely implement decentralized autonomous applications on any blockchain (no matter how limited) - a fact I feel often gets missed out in all of the Ethereum hype. If you have a lot a techniques like zero-knowledge proofs, homomorp…

Interesting. On a deep technical level I wouldnt profess to know how advanced or secure this is, but signaling from others in the space snd the interviews with the core dev teams I watched seem to suggest it is a good working model gor distributed applications.

Would you mind expanding on your point a bit and if possible provide a link or 2 at a comprehensible level for someone who is mot a mathemetician.

I don't want to push back here as I have to reason by analogy not first principles here but:

* rust/go etc took a fairly long time to go into production.

* developing tooling and ecosystems and implementations around complex ideas is difficult.

* self enforcing contracts (my lack of knowledge may betray me) are just another name for "smart contracts"? For a contract to be made you need a transaction and a condition to strike. How is this achieved in this new model as an input/condition is unknowable and must bd provided in advance to do anything interesting, e.g i pay you 1 dollar in 5000 seconds vs. the election outcome. What tradeoffs were made erroneously on ethereums part.

All these are to say, honest question, how has the field evolved enough in 2 years that it is not only leagues better, but peoduction ready?

Could you explain at a (space doctors big idea) level how these concepts work? Super interested to check out something using/working on it

Re: Ethereum: Rise of the World Computer

#100

Post by Anonobread »

crazydoggers wrote: post #37
teraflop wrote: post #13

The article is pretty light on technical details. Does Ethereum suffer from the same design limitation as Bitcoin, where every operation must be verified by every node? If so, I have a really hard time believing it will scale. Look how much difficulty the Bitcoin network is having with just a couple of transactions per second.

One key difference with Bitcoin is that, unlike Bitcoin, Ethereum has an account based architecture. In other words, you have an account that is credited or debited, and you then have a current balance for that account. If you need to get your balance or send ether, you just look up a single number. Bitcoin on the other hand uses an "Unspent Transaction Output" architecture. Basically your balance is made up of all o…

But Ethereum's raison d'etre is "X for the blockchain".

VISA does 56,000 tps.

So it's really simple. How are you going to hit 56,000 tps on the blockchain. The Bitcoin community, which is far bigger and generally more experienced than Ethereum's just spent 18 months vigorously debating this question. Do you suggest Ethereum has come up with a better answer?

And the criticism here is around the selling point of Ethereum: "everything goes on the blockchain". You're telling me after 18 months of debate, the best you've got to say about that is: "an account based architecture"?

What is it about widgets fully encapsulated in a blockchain-native smart contract on Ethereum that makes it so much more scaleable than a similar widget on Bitcoin's blockchain?

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