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TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

truepublica.org.uk

191–200 of 208 posts

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion. It's one of the arguments in favour of the UK leaving. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a little surprised that the out campaign hasn't made more of TTIP itself as a textbook example of the democratic deficit they complain about. Various people in reply hav…

> No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion. Perhaps to some extent (and, being a citizen of neither the UK nor any other EU state, I really don't have much invested in the Brexit debate), though the situation with the EU -- which has directly accountable organs and many of the same kinds of account…

FYI, a large part of the controversy over both the EU in general and TTIP in particular is that only Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the public. The other powerful elements of the EU administration are effectively appointed in various ways, being only indirectly (often through several levels) accountable to the average citizen.

MEPs do have some real power, particularly since the Lisbon Treaty, but in practice that power is often like a veto: they can decline to approve some pretty big deals, but unless there is a credible risk of throwing something out in its entirety, MEPs don't necessarily get much input into the details.

At the moment, it looks like TTIP may be one of those cases. MEPs, and very recently some of the national equivalents, have only been given access to the current proposed text at all if they agreed to very restrictive conditions. Everything else is being done by people who aren't directly accountable to the public, and in most cases aren't even readily identifiable.

This is one of the reasons critics of TTIP will advocate striking the whole thing down. Some really do think it should be thrown out on principle as an affront to democracy, but others are playing a more strategic game, knowing that if the European Parliament starts to look like it actually might flex its muscles in that way, those promoting TTIP will be forced to open it up to full MEP scrutiny and get them back on side before there is any chance of the deal being successful.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN example is especially apt. Are you sure you are not arguing my point? Also, this is getting very tiresome. Representatives have enough time to familiarize themselves with the draft and decide what to vote. This whole "the secret cabal is making treaties without you" is nothing more than sensationalist FUD. Only the negotiations are in secret. As they should be.

Are you sure you are not arguing my point? I'm not even sure what your point is any more. Looking through your comments in this thread, your argument appears to be that negotiations on international agreements must happen in secret, because reasons. Representatives have enough time to familiarize themselves with the draft and decide what to vote. We've already seen procedural technicalities used to set up end-runs ar…

How can every country's MPs change the agreement? How does this work in practice? Have you thought this through?

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you are not arguing my point? I'm not even sure what your point is any more. Looking through your comments in this thread, your argument appears to be that negotiations on international agreements must happen in secret, because reasons. Representatives have enough time to familiarize themselves with the draft and decide what to vote. We've already seen procedural technicalities used to set up end-runs ar…

How can every country's MPs change the agreement? How does this work in practice? Have you thought this through?

Individually they can't, of course, but consulting them as a group is reasonable for something you expect every country to implement. Without the backing of the elected national government, you have no democratic mandate to change national laws or update national policies to reflect your international agreement.

One reasonable process might be having each country send their appointed representatives to negotiate initially, then bringing back a first attempt at consensus for proper and open scrutiny by national authorities. Then you send your delegates back to attempt to resolve any show-stopping issues and prepare final wording. Finally you ask each country's national government to ratify the final agreement. If really necessary, the national scrutiny/delegate negotiations cycle can be repeated first, though if that is happening it suggests the attempted scope of the agreement is too broad to be practical.

This way you would have a chance for people who were actually elected to influence the outcome usefully, without resorting to ongoing line-by-line revisions by thousands of individual MP, MEPs, US senators, etc. You just have to recognise that your delegated negotiators are not sent with the authority to make major policy decisions but only to reach a consensus that all parties can accept on areas where you are already broadly in agreement.

If they aren't able to do that, such that they can come back with a proposal that each country can clearly favour overall with no deal-breaking terms, then again they probably shouldn't have been trying to form such a complicated agreement about such controversial areas between so many different parties in the first place.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No doubt we will be hearing much more of this in the UK over the next few months, given that EU rules have frequently been used as an excuse in a similar fashion. Perhaps to some extent (and, being a citizen of neither the UK nor any other EU state, I really don't have much invested in the Brexit debate), though the situation with the EU -- which has directly accountable organs and many of the same kinds of account…

FYI, a large part of the controversy over both the EU in general and TTIP in particular is that only Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the public. The other powerful elements of the EU administration are effectively appointed in various ways, being only indirectly (often through several levels) accountable to the average citizen. MEPs do have some real power, particularly since the Lisbon Tre…

> FYI, a large part of the controversy over both the EU in general and TTIP in particular is that only Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the public. The other powerful elements of the EU administration are effectively appointed in various ways, being only indirectly (often through several levels) accountable to the average citizen.

Its interesting that that would be controversial about the EU -- isn't that true of many national governments within the EU (most certainly including the UK) -- as well, that the only directly-elected body at the level of the national government is the Parliament, and there are all kinds of other powerful offices and bodies, and the people in those offices and bodies are all appointed in various ways, being only indirectly accountable to the citizenry?

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, a large part of the controversy over both the EU in general and TTIP in particular is that only Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the public. The other powerful elements of the EU administration are effectively appointed in various ways, being only indirectly (often through several levels) accountable to the average citizen. MEPs do have some real power, particularly since the Lisbon Tre…

> FYI, a large part of the controversy over both the EU in general and TTIP in particular is that only Members of the European Parliament are directly elected by the public. The other powerful elements of the EU administration are effectively appointed in various ways, being only indirectly (often through several levels) accountable to the average citizen. Its interesting that that would be controversial about the EU…

Yes, it's also true at national government levels, and the systems do sometimes get criticised on similar grounds as a result.

I'd say at least for the UK the main difference is that there is still a real prospect of holding the appointed parts of the government to account at the next election. Technically, we elect local MPs, with all the usual objections about first past the post. In reality, the party a prospective MP represents is the dominant factor in who wins, except in a few rare cases with perhaps an overriding local issue or protest vote. Consequently the PM (the first indirectly appointed role, normally determined by who can command majority support in Parliament) and government ministers (the next tier, effectively appointed by the PM) are still strongly accountable to the electorate in practice. If they do unpopular things, the MPs from whom the administration as a whole derives its power, and most of the officials as MPs themselves, will face the consequences at the next election. (This doesn't apply to the same extent for government ministers who are Lords rather than MPs, but appointments to the entirely undemocratic House of Lords is a whole issue in itself.)

This is quite different to the executive of the EU, where Commissioners sent by member states are infamously often failed but high profile national politicians who are either being given a pat on the back by a friendly administration or shipped out of the way for a while because they're too dangerous to keep around back home. Which mandate each Commissioner is given then depends on the President of the Commission, who in turn is decided through such a complicated process that I won't even try to describe it here. If you as a citizen don't like the way an incumbent European Commissioner is handling their brief, there is no real prospect of influencing them to change it. Even in the face of overwhelming public opposition to some policy, by the time the people have voted to change the balance of power in enough places that either the Commissioner is no longer appointed by their home state or the European Parliament can bring down a Commission, the term of office would probably be up anyway.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked almost like that in the USA with the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Text of the TPP totally kept secret, even from the US Senate and House. Before our "representatives" got a chance to read the treaty, someone forced a vote on trade authority. Now, there's a short period to read a long treaty, which is being changed by the "legal scrub" process, and there's one opportunity to vote on it, no debate on the provis…

Well, that's the least charitable way to frame it. A more accurate way to frame it: * The United States Congress does not really get line-item veto on giant international trade agreements that affect dozens of countries, all of whom also must ratify the treaty. * Trade promotion authority is simply the authorization for the administration to negotiate the treaty. * By the time TPP is ratified by Congress at the end o…

I think (or at least hope) the main cause for concern in the US not that it will make the law worse, but that it takes the law out of our hands, so any problems with current law become almost impossible to fix. When there's an over-broad law, it's possible (and sometimes it even actually happens) for Congress to recognize the mistakes in the original law and dial things back a bit. But once it's in a treaty, Hollywood kind of has DC over a barrel.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#197
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may already be a law on the books in some countries. Regarding the US, these treaties will probably effect more harm to the protections and government as defined by the Constitution than any army. So at what point does that count as "levying war"? Or are we going to pretend that "war" doesn't include economic weapons? (I suspect this might be easier in other countries, that use a less restrictive definition of…

Do you genuinely think it would be reasonable, just and workable to extend the definition of war to drafting a proposed trade agreement that you don't like?

This is more than a agreement to not levy tariffs on each others trade. Since it includes a loss of sovereignty for the US government it should be directly incompatible with the US constitution..

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US Congress does, really, have line-item authority over regular US laws. I don't think legality was the issue. The issue is that there are dozens of countries that need to vote on the same exact text for it to have an effect. Surely the US Congress could modify it but then the other players will at best ratify a different version and at worse change items here and there themselves. In both cases, what you get i…

> In both cases, what you get is not an international trade agrement. You may as well vote "no" or not even try to negotiate a deal. Right, which is the exact point of this whole tiresome conversation about negotiations. People who don't want TPP (or TTIP) to become law have figured out that it's easier to attack the process than to attack the substance[1], and the outcome would be the same. [1] Not because the subst…

The content of both includes and provides for secret extra-national cabals... So that might be where some of the fears come from.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not. If I can argue as a leading party, that my populous would never consent to this or that feature of the treaty, I gain enormous leverage. And seen another way. If any majority of people inside a democracy does not want to have a feature it is the politicians job to listen to the people and do their bidding. Politicians are there to server the people not to rule them.

You have time for that. After the draft is published. People are saying that this is NEGOTIATED in private. Which is how negotiations work. What will be proposed as a draft depends on many variables. Accepting the draft and making it into laws takes many steps, the final one being approval from every member's parliament.

Well I do not see, why corporations then get an early say in the "negotiations" when the people are not able to do so via their elected representatives. Because, as you can clearly see, my representative might have the right to read some of it, but he has no right to alter the "negotiations".

The people negotiating on my behalf are so far removed from my actual vote, that I could not possible call this democratic.

So no, when the final draft is released, we will have the european parliament get some short amount of time (easily too short to really grasp implications), no real debate, but a fast vote. Then this will have to be implemented into national laws (without another parliamentarian debate on a national basis).

Let's see, what you have to say then in regards to this process.

Re: TTIP Enters New and Dangerous Stage as Democracy Is Dismantled in Secret

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have time for that. After the draft is published. People are saying that this is NEGOTIATED in private. Which is how negotiations work. What will be proposed as a draft depends on many variables. Accepting the draft and making it into laws takes many steps, the final one being approval from every member's parliament.

Well I do not see, why corporations then get an early say in the "negotiations" when the people are not able to do so via their elected representatives. Because, as you can clearly see, my representative might have the right to read some of it, but he has no right to alter the "negotiations". The people negotiating on my behalf are so far removed from my actual vote, that I could not possible call this democratic. So…

I say there is enough time, you say there isn't.

What is left to say?

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