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Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

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Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#161

Post by ryandrake »

childpsychismeh wrote: post #160
jevanish wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of studies that show that money is a poor motivator long term once you pass the essentials for life (which admittedly in the Valley is higher than many other places). As important, some of those studies show that especially in roles requiring creativity (like engineering, design, etc) it actually negatively effects motivation and output. See Dan Pink's Drive for a good summary of many of this research,…

This response has always seemed meaningless to the point of insult; and the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how much of "they don't REALLY want/need money" is motivated by the people who have to pay out. (sorry, this comes off as very blunt, please take it as only a comment on the argument and not you, but I needed to use strong words to express the strength of what it makes me feel) As you say, "essentials for lif…

I fully agree, and thank you for taking the time to comment on what's now a very old thread. I'll put it even more bluntly:

Cavemen had "the essentials of life." That's not what I'm going for, and not what most people are going for. Every little bit extra helps.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#162

Post by st3v3r »

ryandrake wrote: post #140
st3v3r wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because after a while, more money doesn't motivate. Most of us are making levels of money where an extra $10k or so isn't really going to make as much of a difference in your day to day life as some of these other things.

"Most" of us? Maybe if most of us are execs and senior VPs. For the rest of us $10K is a big chunk of change--a significant percentage of compensation. $10K is about $500/mo after taxes, which could, for example, mean being able to afford to live in a much better neighborhood or send your kids to a better school.

Yes, most of us. I'd be willing to say that many of us are probably making enough to live in good neighborhoods with good schools already. And remember, that extra $10k doesn't come free; you'll have to work harder, with more stress, and possibly more hours. I'd be willing to wager that most of us are being paid enough to where that's not really a winning proposition.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#163

Post by st3v3r »

ryandrake wrote: post #161
childpsychismeh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response has always seemed meaningless to the point of insult; and the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how much of "they don't REALLY want/need money" is motivated by the people who have to pay out. (sorry, this comes off as very blunt, please take it as only a comment on the argument and not you, but I needed to use strong words to express the strength of what it makes me feel) As you say, "essentials for lif…

I fully agree, and thank you for taking the time to comment on what's now a very old thread. I'll put it even more bluntly: Cavemen had "the essentials of life." That's not what I'm going for, and not what most people are going for. Every little bit extra helps.

But what are you willing to trade for it? Keep in mind that I'm not talking about people who are just above making ends meet; I'm talking about people who are already making 6 figures. I would imagine that most of us, the additional money, unless it is a very significant sum, like a 30% raise, would rather not have the additional stress and the additional responsibilities, and instead be able to use that time and energy on things that we want to do, like hobbies or being with family.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#164

Post by existencebox »

st3v3r wrote: post #163
ryandrake wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree, and thank you for taking the time to comment on what's now a very old thread. I'll put it even more bluntly: Cavemen had "the essentials of life." That's not what I'm going for, and not what most people are going for. Every little bit extra helps.

But what are you willing to trade for it? Keep in mind that I'm not talking about people who are just above making ends meet; I'm talking about people who are already making 6 figures. I would imagine that most of us, the additional money, unless it is a very significant sum, like a 30% raise, would rather not have the additional stress and the additional responsibilities, and instead be able to use that time and ene…

I am rather well paid. I push very hard in my job, to try and aim for monetary promotions. I live in such a high cost of living area, however, that even on my salary it is difficult to afford a house. and start a family, ESPECIALLY competing with double income households.

This leaves me with three options. Rent forever, at increasing rates. (not a feasible option). Buy a house now, ride the constant increasing prices like everyone already in the market, be glad I'm not a buyer any more. (trying, but very hard to compete when 10% above listing is common.) Save up and move the hell out.

In any of these situations, a 5%, hell, a 1% raise compounded over a decade, makes a _meaningful_ difference in how long you'd be able to sustain living in a better cost of living area (e.g. if I moved out into the country somewhere), if not also on how much I can put out as a down-payment or as a lifeline to keeping up with increasing rent.

Perhaps it's a sign of what would have in the past been comfortably middle class being more and more stretched, but every little bit counts; it's an oddly similar feeling to when I used to be far less well off a few decades back.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#165

Post by brazzledazzle »

jdmichal wrote: post #71
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the third hand, if you have some kind of career goals, then you probably want to be making some kind of progress towards them. While it's not always possible to discuss such goals with your employer (eg. if your goal is "become the CTO" and your immediate manager's goal is also "become the CTO" then discussing this with them is likely to end poorly), it's important to at least let them know which direction you wan…

> At my last job, I was the primary fire-putter-outer on a number of fronts, and it was very disheartening watching new projects (that I'd put my hand up for) get handed off to others while I was busy fixing up the previous efforts of said others. I've seen this happen at an even bigger scale. The site I was part of was very successful, and was therefore completely unable to get any time or capital to do independent…

I've seen similar behavior and the theory I came up with is that managers are engaged/rewarded by being associated with successful projects and technical people that report to them are engaged/rewarded by new projects and challenges.

I speculated that from their perspective someone tied down to maintaining a very successful project (that continues to make succeed or make money) is in a great position politically and those getting the new green-field projects are being exposed to risk.

It reminds me of meetings–managers don't realize that they are a drain on the people performing the work because that's of course how they work and accomplish things.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#166

Post by jevanish »

childpsychismeh wrote: post #160
jevanish wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of studies that show that money is a poor motivator long term once you pass the essentials for life (which admittedly in the Valley is higher than many other places). As important, some of those studies show that especially in roles requiring creativity (like engineering, design, etc) it actually negatively effects motivation and output. See Dan Pink's Drive for a good summary of many of this research,…

This response has always seemed meaningless to the point of insult; and the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how much of "they don't REALLY want/need money" is motivated by the people who have to pay out. (sorry, this comes off as very blunt, please take it as only a comment on the argument and not you, but I needed to use strong words to express the strength of what it makes me feel) As you say, "essentials for lif…

Yes. You are right it's dynamic and does change. Certainly as more people are in your family (single->married->children) your cost structure that makes you happy definitely changes.

Issues tied to financial stability certainly will drive you to want to get a higher salary, especially with how impossible home ownership is in places like Silicon Valley.

With that being said, if you aren't having to stare at your bank balance every morning and sweat your salary, then what makes you happiest at work is those other factors of things like Pink's framework of Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose. It's also the lack of those 3 areas that will make a job that pays sufficiently pretty damn miserable leading you to seek a more fulfilling job if you can find one that meets your salary needs. I bet there's a limit to what you'd put up with at work even if they paid you $1 million per year.

Having worked in a number of early stage startups I have talked to a number of older members of teams I've been on who have forgone as much as $50-60k in salary to move from a giant company to a mid-size startup. That definitely affected their quality of life to do it, but it was worth it to wake up happy, despite perhaps making some sacrifices. As they told me, they had to make some adjustments in their lifestyle but then got used to it and it was okay.

The other important factor that I would encourage you to look at Pink's research for is that it turns out if you use financial incentives to tie to creative tasks (like an engineer shipping features) it actually has been found in psychology studies to lower the quality of the work and the motivation of the person. This means bonuses are often a really bad idea. The good thing about a salary is that it is disconnected from a specific creative task.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#167

Post by jevanish »

mbrock wrote: post #158
jevanish wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying problem for you and mbrock is that managers are rarely rewarded for doing these things. Mbrock is essentially asking for a one on one that isn't filled with Status Updates and platitudes. One that fosters genuine conversation and values their input. You're talking about real growth and whether it's a specific title or new skills, that's also a huge motivator. Unfortunately, in most companies, managers…

At my first job, the only one-on-one I ever had with my manager was a yearly scheduled "performance review" (in Swedish, the word used is the same as that used in grade school), during which we assessed my competence. When a higher level manager wanted to know why the product development wasn't as good as it could be, an external consultant came in to observe for a couple of weeks. He actually did talk one-on-one wit…

Sounds about right. So many undervalue tapping into the ideas and feedback from their teams and it's a massive missed opportunity. Unfortunately, I bet even at the small startup, as you grew these kinds of problems re-emerged unless the company had one on ones and good management habits.

Toyota actually even brought this to their blue collar workers with their "Total Product System" which allowed anyone to stop the assembly line if they caught a problem and engaged them in feedback to find solutions. (More here: http://hbr.org/2004/05/learning-to-lead-at-toyota/ar/1)

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#168

Post by jevanish »

ryandrake wrote: post #161
childpsychismeh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response has always seemed meaningless to the point of insult; and the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how much of "they don't REALLY want/need money" is motivated by the people who have to pay out. (sorry, this comes off as very blunt, please take it as only a comment on the argument and not you, but I needed to use strong words to express the strength of what it makes me feel) As you say, "essentials for lif…

I fully agree, and thank you for taking the time to comment on what's now a very old thread. I'll put it even more bluntly: Cavemen had "the essentials of life." That's not what I'm going for, and not what most people are going for. Every little bit extra helps.

Except for maybe some Buddhist monks who have given up all material things, everyone would like another dollar. However, there's also fulfillment at work.

Go take the absolute highest paying offer the next time you interview for jobs, and if you do that a series of times, I think you'll find you won't be as happy as taking the best overall offer that takes into account things like:

- Role/responsibility

- How interesting the work is

- Whether you're excited to work with your future peers

There's a reason people leave finance despite the high pay. There's more to life than money.

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#169

Post by [deleted] »

existencebox wrote: post #164
st3v3r wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what are you willing to trade for it? Keep in mind that I'm not talking about people who are just above making ends meet; I'm talking about people who are already making 6 figures. I would imagine that most of us, the additional money, unless it is a very significant sum, like a 30% raise, would rather not have the additional stress and the additional responsibilities, and instead be able to use that time and ene…

I am rather well paid. I push very hard in my job, to try and aim for monetary promotions. I live in such a high cost of living area, however, that even on my salary it is difficult to afford a house. and start a family, ESPECIALLY competing with double income households. This leaves me with three options. Rent forever, at increasing rates. (not a feasible option). Buy a house now, ride the constant increasing prices…

[deleted]

Re: Employees: looking for “the great boss who cares about their development”

#170

Post by afterburner »

vinceguidry wrote: post #69
afterburner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"keep the same compensation" Not even inflation? Sounds like you're driving the benefits down. Or at least want to.

That's the nature of a growth-fueled economy. Everybody has to keep up, or they fall behind. The same work, the same roles, get less valuable over time.

Certainly no need to care about your concerns...
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