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The E-Cat has been replicated?

animpossibleinvention.com

21–30 of 73 posts

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#21
post #20

I'm genuinely curious as to why HN so regularly has articles about various "wouldn't it be great if this worked but obviously it never will" scams/inventions/measurement errors on the front page. Is it because there is a contingent of HN voters who are true believers in this stuff? Is it "point at the silly people and laugh"? Is it some kind of attempt to make a meta point about credulity or discuss scams or somethin…

Maybe all of those are a factor. Personally, while I try to maintain skepticism about big claims like this, I don't like to dismiss an idea offhand just because most other people have previously dismissed it. Others are probably willing to extend the same courtesy even if the particular claim is unlikely to hold. Just curious, would you put the EM drive[0] in the same category? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_re…

The EmDrive is actually less physically plausible than the E-Cat if you get into it, since reactionless propulsion is identical to perpetual motion and/or infinite energy. Someone had a nice explanation of this over on Reddit but I don't have a link handy. Basically if momentum is not conserved then you can build kinetic energy without bound on finite power or something like that. The only way the EmDrive could work is if either (a) we are really wrong about some fundamental stuff, or (b) it's not actually reactionless but is pushing against something "exotic" like dark matter or dark energy.

E-Cat or anything like it (LENR) would mean new nuclear physics -- some way of bypassing the Coulomb barrier at low energies via some novel probably quantum mechanism. But fundamentally it's not violating anything as foundational as a conservation law. We know the energy is there via E=mc^2 and all. We just don't currently know of any way to get at that energy at sub-plasma temperatures and pressures (and for the proposed fusion reaction in the E-Cat, by no known physical means). LENR would require new physics but would not break existing physics.

I do recall reading some interesting stuff about how some of the gas giant planets seem a bit warmer than they should be, and that if LENR were a thing it would provide a possible explanation for some anomalous heating observed in astronomical observations.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#22
post #16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has a (US) patent already. https://www.google.com/patents/US9115913

If they have patents, why don't they publish a real scientific article on this with all the information needed to replicate? This stuff is permanently in my 'put up or shut up' category, and putting up means true independent open replication by more than one party.

A 'real scientific' article wouldn't do anything to convince people - it would be picked apart and doubted. Which is kind of an interesting thing in an of itself. I think for controversial stuff, you simply won't get scientists to budge no matter how transparent or rigorious the reporting. If the stuff turns out to be true, there will be a long delay before acceptance.

I no longer believe that open replications make much difference either (there have been open replications and I still don't know anything more).

They are focussed on industrial and consumer installations instead. I'll start really believing if people are using this in the real world and that's the strategy they have I think. So wait and see is what I do.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#23
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually doesn't work, as there's a long history of people hiding batteries in their fake overunity devices. You can also have devices that might have other forms of stored energy that might be slowly depleted, such as mechanical strain being relieved, chemical reactions taking place, etc. You can also have devices that work by taking advantage of solar power in a subtle way or other external effects.

"More energy than can possibly be stored." For it to be a real test you'd have to exceed the total energy output of any plausible chemical system. Calculate the total amount of energy of a stoichiometric mixture of, say, liquid oxygen and kerosene, and then draw power until you have exceeded that. At that point you can be pretty damn sure it's not a chemical battery.

Live stream it. "Ladies and Gentlemen we know for certain now that it's not a gasoline engine, it's not powered by coal nor is it fueled by a wood burning oven, stay tuned!"

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#24
post #8

Why is this so difficult? Isolate the machine in a box where the only connection to the outside world is two wires. Draw power from those wires until you've pulled more energy than any known storage system could possibly provide. Boom, done. Of course, my question is rhetorical. The answer is obvious: it doesn't work. If it worked, it would be easy to demonstrate.

> Isolate the machine in a box where the only connection to the outside world is two wires. Draw power from those wires until you've pulled more energy than any known storage system could possibly provide.

I believe a MacBook running Chrome, Atom, and Slack for a few hours will satisfy this requirement.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#25
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thing is supposedly a fusion device. Run it until you've drawn more energy than could possibly be provided by burning an equivalent mass of hydrogen, and then you know it must be a nuclear effect. If it can't provide that much energy, then it's a worthless fusion device. I can accept that such a test may not be totally 100% definitive. But if the device is real then it could definitely pass. The fact that they'r…

Yes, random internet guy has the answer. > If it can't provide that much energy, then it's a worthless fusion device. A fusion device that produces more energy than you put in but doesn't produce a shit ton of energy right now is a useful breakthough in fusion.

> Yes, random internet guy has the answer

Ideas (should) stand on their own around here. Take this lame attempt at Argument from Authority somewhere else.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#26
post #21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe all of those are a factor. Personally, while I try to maintain skepticism about big claims like this, I don't like to dismiss an idea offhand just because most other people have previously dismissed it. Others are probably willing to extend the same courtesy even if the particular claim is unlikely to hold. Just curious, would you put the EM drive[0] in the same category? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_re…

The EmDrive is actually less physically plausible than the E-Cat if you get into it, since reactionless propulsion is identical to perpetual motion and/or infinite energy. Someone had a nice explanation of this over on Reddit but I don't have a link handy. Basically if momentum is not conserved then you can build kinetic energy without bound on finite power or something like that. The only way the EmDrive could work…

Awesome, thanks for the info. While I wouldn't be that surprised if the EmDrive works by undiscovered spooky action at a distance, if it works by violating conservation of momentum that would be bonkers.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, random internet guy has the answer. > If it can't provide that much energy, then it's a worthless fusion device. A fusion device that produces more energy than you put in but doesn't produce a shit ton of energy right now is a useful breakthough in fusion.

> Yes, random internet guy has the answer Ideas (should) stand on their own around here. Take this lame attempt at Argument from Authority somewhere else.

Please don't respond to an uncivil comment with another uncivil comment. That just makes the thread worse yet.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#28
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thing is supposedly a fusion device. Run it until you've drawn more energy than could possibly be provided by burning an equivalent mass of hydrogen, and then you know it must be a nuclear effect. If it can't provide that much energy, then it's a worthless fusion device. I can accept that such a test may not be totally 100% definitive. But if the device is real then it could definitely pass. The fact that they'r…

Yes, random internet guy has the answer. > If it can't provide that much energy, then it's a worthless fusion device. A fusion device that produces more energy than you put in but doesn't produce a shit ton of energy right now is a useful breakthough in fusion.

But it doesn't prove that it truly is a fusion device then.

> random internet guy

Are you sure you're more qualified to discuss this than the poster you're replying to? Why make a point of it if you aren't?

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#29
post #2

"E-Cat" is short for "Energy Catalyzation" which is more or less cold-fusion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

Thanks. I was wondering what this was about; my best guess was the CueCat from one of Joel Spolsky's old columns...

hahaha, I was thinking the exact same thing, literally cue cat and all too. Even funnier is my undergrad degree was, originally, applied physics before switching to EE. I follow science when I can but boy do I feel out of the loop sometimes. Reading your post gave me a nice chuckle.

Re: The E-Cat has been replicated?

#30

I'm genuinely curious as to why HN so regularly has articles about various "wouldn't it be great if this worked but obviously it never will" scams/inventions/measurement errors on the front page. Is it because there is a contingent of HN voters who are true believers in this stuff? Is it "point at the silly people and laugh"? Is it some kind of attempt to make a meta point about credulity or discuss scams or somethin…

Well, for one I can't downvote threads. Seems what you need to get a page to stay on the front page is people willing to upvote it, not skeptics against the thing.
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