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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#281

Post by Sacho »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #199
abruzzi wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure hypothetical, but I've wondered what would happen if apple were to lose in court, then make this custom iOS signed to work only on the specific phone in question, and provide the installer to the FBI with a bill for $5 million in development time. Then destroy all source on this special version, stating that they don't feel comfortable having that in their source tree since a rogue employee might leak it…

Well. "Hello, Mr. X and Mr. Y, we hear that you're the ones who built the previous version. We'll taking you on a vacation to Gitmo, so you can build us another one. You're welcome."

Too bad they can't - the code is probably trivial to write, but they wouldn't have access to Apple's signing keys in order to install their update.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#282

Post by sliverstorm »

matwood wrote: post #269
andrepd wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Police can search your house or seize your mail with a court order. Why can't they search your phone or computer?

They can search my phone and computer with a court order. What they should not be able to do is force companies to compromise proper encryption so they always have the ability to find something.

That's not the only angle here. Apple was asked to aide the FBI in attacking a phone, not to design bad crypto. (They may have also been asked to design bad crypto, but that's not what is happening here)

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#284

Post by yaur »

m_mueller wrote: post #141
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

> "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device? IMO yes and here is how I'd implement this given a secure enclave: 1) Have Apple generate a device specific key that unlocks the device without pass code. 2) The key gets encrypted with an Apple held master key and printed on the inside of th…

No. Whatever backdoor you enable for the US government can be used by other governments. When traveling internationally I would rather just deal with the minuscule increase in terrorism risk in exchange for a phone that can't be decrypted by anyone but me.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#285

Post by davidw »

Laaw wrote: post #274
davidw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the argument that the 'man on the street' is going to think of. There are reasonable checks and balances in most cases for searching things like houses or wire tapping phones, so people need some good arguments as to why it shouldn't apply to a phone's data as well. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11160748

There are the exact same checks and balances taking place right now for the iPhone.

Which is why I wish someone would respond to "what's wrong with that". See my other comment, that I linked to.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#286

Post by specialist »

microtonal wrote: post #170
m_mueller wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device? IMO yes and here is how I'd implement this given a secure enclave: 1) Have Apple generate a device specific key that unlocks the device without pass code. 2) The key gets encrypted with an Apple held master key and printed on the inside of th…

4) The process for accessing the data on a specific device becomes simple - law enforcement needs to be in possession of (A) the device and (B) a court order. Apple will decrypt the key if forced by court order. I think, we can assume that up till now, Apple has its private keys protected on some disconnected machine in a HSM, perhaps multiple HSMs, that are only accessible with very restricted access. When there is…

HSM - Hardware Security Module?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_security_module

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#287

Post by mattlutze »

comex wrote: post #186
mattlutze wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device? The government already does have access to these citizens' data. That data simply has the quality of having been encrypted. If I have printed encrypted text and lock it in my home safe, when the government gets…

If the encrypted data is stored on a hard drive in that safe, the government can compel production in some cases, blocked mainly by a legal quirk involving the Fifth Amendment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_St... IANAL, but I think your original hypothetical would be roughly analogous. I think the difference in this Apple case is essentially the amount of effort required (producing a passw…

My NAL understanding there was that, in cases where the government has already seen the evidence, decription is not self-incrimination. But in general excepting that, they can't compel the owner in the possibility that doing so would force the owner to self-incriminate.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#288

Post by MaysonL »

awongh wrote: post #72
kareemm wrote: post #23

This sounds exactly right. From an article I posted earlier[1]: > In interviews with BuzzFeed News Wednesday, the former officers with the FBI and NSA acknowledged that U.S. intelligence agencies have technology that has been used in past intelligence-gathering operations to break into locked phones. The question, they added, was whether it was worthwhile for the FBI to deploy that technology, rather than setting a p…

This makes a lot of sense since the government could issue an order through FISA and afaik apple would be required to comply with it. The fact that they can resist the order and in a such a public way feels a little bit theatrical, given what we know about how these things work. I wonder how much of what's happening between apple and the fbi / rest of the government is the tip of the iceberg.

Note that it is the DOJ/FBI that wanted it public: Apple asked for it to be sealed, as the previous requests were.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#289

Post by Chefkoochooloo »

sliverstorm wrote: post #282
matwood wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can search my phone and computer with a court order. What they should not be able to do is force companies to compromise proper encryption so they always have the ability to find something.

That's not the only angle here. Apple was asked to aide the FBI in attacking a phone, not to design bad crypto. (They may have also been asked to design bad crypto, but that's not what is happening here )

But what you are forgetting is that Apple has been fully compliant and cooperative throughout this investigation. The problem with building a backdoor into a highly encrypted security system gives pathways for others to find the same backdoor. If other hackers knew there is a for-sure way to gain access and hack an iPhone, they will find that path. With today's plethora of technology, a line needs to be crossed in order to protect our privacy. We hold so many personal details inside of our phones and if by some chance the backdoor were to be released, chaos and panic would run ramped. I can understand completely why Apple deems this process "too dangerous".

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#290

Post by Chefkoochooloo »

mattlutze wrote: post #168
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

> The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device? The government already does have access to these citizens' data. That data simply has the quality of having been encrypted. If I have printed encrypted text and lock it in my home safe, when the government gets…

You scenario is wonderfully worded and poses a great dilemma. I personally believe that the government should not be able to press a person or firm into service. In today's world of technology, we tend to forget that what we have on our phones is simply an electronic copy of paperback versions. "Printing out" our phones in the encrypted way you refer would not be any use to anyone but the primary owner of the data. Just because we have the means to decipher documents does not mean we should and it should be ultimately up to the person/firm to decipher said documents.
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