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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#181

Post by shkkmo »

FrankyHollywood wrote: post #166

I still like BGs argument (and do consider myself a hacker haha) "It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records. Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’.“ ( https://www.yahoo.com/tech/bill-gates-sa…

That is a ridiculous and misleading argument and Bill Gates should be ashamed of having made it.

The difference is that ribbon isn't hard to cut and so the bank wouldn't have to develop a whole new type of scissors to cut it and doing so doesn't weaken the security of a bunch of other bank records secured with similar ribbon.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#182

Post by microtonal »

m_mueller wrote: post #176
microtonal wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4) The process for accessing the data on a specific device becomes simple - law enforcement needs to be in possession of (A) the device and (B) a court order. Apple will decrypt the key if forced by court order. I think, we can assume that up till now, Apple has its private keys protected on some disconnected machine in a HSM, perhaps multiple HSMs, that are only accessible with very restricted access. When there is…

I concede, these are good points. I'd like to add though, that it would be better overall to have a solution that at least tries to limit access to specific devices, rather than Apple being forced by the government to build in general backdoors. But I can't really think of a better solution. Maybe have a hierarchy of keys, one per some serial number suffix, each in different servers in different buildings and accesse…

I think that we as a society (though I am not American) should decide first whether we think backdoors for court orders are worth the risk at all.

Let's be honest with ourselves, the chance to be killed by terrorists is minuscule compared to other factors that are under human control (air pollution, traffic incidents, homicides).

If you are looking at non-terrorist criminal activity, one has to wonder if you don't have more serious problems than unlocking a bunch of iPhones when your homicide rates[1] or traffic-related deaths[2] are higher than nearly any other Western country.

Terrorism and crime are just easy distractions to get more power.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#183

Post by Sir_Substance »

edraferi wrote: post #73
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

>I suspect we'll ultimately wind up with mainstream device manufacturers maintaining some kind of per-device master key that they turn over when ordered.

It will be impossible to secure that database. Any number and size of bribes would be worth spreading around to gain a dump of it. Once I have a dump, you're up shit creek because you're faced with changing every key of every device you've ever sold to resecure them. However, any key changing mechanism you create is an exploitation vector criminals can use to randomly scramble their "master key" and not report the new one to you, and again, any certs you use to secure this process will become v cost effective to bribe for. So we're left with a situation where one breach screws everyone and it hurts legitimate users way more than the criminals it is targeted at.

Back doors are back doors man. Anyone can use the door handle, once it exists.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#184

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ascorbic wrote: post #148
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

The other question is if it's legal for a company to design their devices so that it is technically impossible for them to comply. Is there any practical reason why the secure enclave could not be programmed such that any firmware update to the enclave requires the PIN, and if not it erases the key. That way Apple is still able to make updates to the enclave, but cannot be compelled to bypass security restrictions on…

It would be difficult to design a law in a Napoleonic system that disallowed that(designing their devices so that it is technically impossible for them to comply), although in the American system I guess it would be possible.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#185

Post by FrankyHollywood »

The discussion about encryption is getting completely out of context, like 'encryption' is something magical.

We're talking about cracking a 4 digit access code of a phone, which is extremely easy. Apple knows this, that's why they set a digital booby trap which fires after 10 tries.

So the real discussion should be, "Can the government force a company who placed a booby trap, to remove that same trap if needed?"

Whether this is a digital trap, of a bomb placed on a doorknob is not important.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#186

Post by comex »

mattlutze wrote: post #168
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

> The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device? The government already does have access to these citizens' data. That data simply has the quality of having been encrypted. If I have printed encrypted text and lock it in my home safe, when the government gets…

If the encrypted data is stored on a hard drive in that safe, the government can compel production in some cases, blocked mainly by a legal quirk involving the Fifth Amendment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_St...

IANAL, but I think your original hypothetical would be roughly analogous. I think the difference in this Apple case is essentially the amount of effort required (producing a password versus actually writing [a modicum of] new OS software), but I could be wrong.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#187

Post by hollander »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

The best respons is already a reality: iPhone 6 with Secure Enclave - or making it impossible to unlock the phone with a hack and with brute force.

I hope Google and Microsoft follow suit, and make this a requirement for future versions of Android and Windows Phone.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#188

Post by FrankyHollywood »

shkkmo wrote: post #181
FrankyHollywood wrote: post #166

I still like BGs argument (and do consider myself a hacker haha) "It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records. Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’.“ ( https://www.yahoo.com/tech/bill-gates-sa…

That is a ridiculous and misleading argument and Bill Gates should be ashamed of having made it. The difference is that ribbon isn't hard to cut and so the bank wouldn't have to develop a whole new type of scissors to cut it and doing so doesn't weaken the security of a bunch of other bank records secured with similar ribbon.

so if a phone can be cracked in 1 hour it is allowed, but if it takes a month the government can't?

this discussion is not about complexity!

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#189

Post by Aissen »

hollander wrote: post #187
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

The best respons is already a reality: iPhone 6 with Secure Enclave - or making it impossible to unlock the phone with a hack and with brute force. I hope Google and Microsoft follow suit, and make this a requirement for future versions of Android and Windows Phone.

Nope, Secure Enclave is updateable, even Apple said so.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#190

Post by DavideNL »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

> "Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security."

I wonder if that would have negative economic consequences for the US, e.g. tech companies that value privacy moving to Europe or elsewhere and customers avoiding US tech products.

If so, i imagine that would probably be the best reason for the US government to not proceed with this?

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