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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#141

Post by m_mueller »

edraferi wrote: post #73
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

> "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without compromising the general security of the device?

IMO yes and here is how I'd implement this given a secure enclave:

1) Have Apple generate a device specific key that unlocks the device without pass code.

2) The key gets encrypted with an Apple held master key and printed on the inside of the device, e.g. a sticker on the chipset. Note that at this point, the device is as secure as before if we assume that someone who gets the Apple certifier key can exchange the secure enclave software at will.

3) Apple should ensure that the unencrypted key gets deleted from all of their systems after it was printed, to ensure plausible deniability.

4) The process for accessing the data on a specific device becomes simple - law enforcement needs to be in possession of (A) the device and (B) a court order. Apple will decrypt the key if forced by court order.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#142

Post by danudey »

id wrote: post #116
mratzloff wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the people who care about privacy become targets.

They are already targets.

If it's opt-in, then encryption on your phone leads to 'what are you trying to hide?'

If it's on-by-default, then everyone has their phone encrypted, and it's never suspicious.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#144

Post by studentrob »

awongh wrote: post #72
kareemm wrote: post #23

This sounds exactly right. From an article I posted earlier[1]: > In interviews with BuzzFeed News Wednesday, the former officers with the FBI and NSA acknowledged that U.S. intelligence agencies have technology that has been used in past intelligence-gathering operations to break into locked phones. The question, they added, was whether it was worthwhile for the FBI to deploy that technology, rather than setting a p…

This makes a lot of sense since the government could issue an order through FISA and afaik apple would be required to comply with it. The fact that they can resist the order and in a such a public way feels a little bit theatrical, given what we know about how these things work. I wonder how much of what's happening between apple and the fbi / rest of the government is the tip of the iceberg.

> The fact that they can resist the order and in a such a public way feels a little bit theatrical, given what we know about how these things work.

I wondered that too. I read that Apple wanted to keep the debate quiet, and that it was the FBI who wanted to have a public debate.

Anyway, here we are having the "public debate about security vs. privacy on computers"

FBI sympathizers complain that some people are talking in extremes, and that the issue needs a balanced, nuanced approach like Bill Gates has offered.

Tech experts tell them that encryption can't be outlawed and the FBI is deaf to it

Regardless of whether we're talking about zero knowledge devices or not, now is the time to have the debate, because compelling Apple to act here is one step away from telling them they can't legally create a completely secure device. If we do this, so will China and other oppressive regimes, and it will hurt the global cause of free speech irrevocably.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#145

Post by jsmthrowaway »

newman314 wrote: post #135
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

What's alarming is that sites like The Verge are posting articles like this [1] essentially condoning the FBI's position. I would have expected them to know better. [1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/23/11100152/apple-fbi-terrori...

I read the entire article and I cannot find basis to support your position on it. Was it edited?

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#146

Post by bmelton »

gravypod wrote: post #132

I'm confused. From what I understand apple has been doing this for some time. I even remember someone saying that apple did this many times before. Even if apple isn't the one doing this, there are also plenty of people who are familiar with low level vulnerabilities of iPhones that can essentially do the same tasks.

Apple has not done "this" before. Apple may have unlocked phones for older models (with less security), but with the upgrades to iOS for versions 5 and 6, this is a much different ask.

The FBI is hoping to have Apple develop a new iOS that does not automatically wipe the device after invalid password attempts, then use their signing keys to push a deployment of that operating system onto this specific phone.

Nobody else has access to Apple's signing keys, ergo nobody has the ability to do this on Apple's behalf.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#147

Post by bmelton »

mc808 wrote: post #77

Let's end drug prohibition first, and then discuss whether to hack the remaining phones, if any. This whole fiasco has nothing to do with terrorism. Alternatively, introduce a restriction that this form of forced labor can only be compelled in terrorism cases where lives are in imminent danger. How many phones will be left to hack?

> Alternatively, introduce a restriction that this form of forced labor can only be compelled in terrorism cases

That would simply spur a lot more manufactured "high profile terrorism cases" hitting the news.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#148

Post by ascorbic »

edraferi wrote: post #73
jrapdx3 wrote: post #65

The article describes the Justice Dept. doing exactly what has been so widely predicted on HN and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like good timing on the government's part to publicly announce the intention to seek numerous iPhone "unlockings". Rather it plays into Apple's argument about unleashing a torrent of court-ordered demands which will have adverse consequences for security. Legal minds should weigh in, but I'm think…

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

The other question is if it's legal for a company to design their devices so that it is technically impossible for them to comply.

Is there any practical reason why the secure enclave could not be programmed such that any firmware update to the enclave requires the PIN, and if not it erases the key. That way Apple is still able to make updates to the enclave, but cannot be compelled to bypass security restrictions on locked devices.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#149

Post by studentrob »

swyman wrote: post #78
mikekchar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer (and not even an American), but from my perspective, I don't see how they can loose. They have a warrant. I used to work on telephone switches and we added code that would allow someone with a warrant to record conversations all the time. We even had a generic facility for it. The main difference, of course, is that adding an ability to allow someone to intrude on privacy for a service is different…

> Essentially you will have to argue that compelling a company to create an exploit to satisfy a warrant constitutes an unreasonable search if that exploit can also be used to perform illegal searches. From the majority opinion in another All Writs case that made it to the Supreme Court[1]: "[The lower court] was apparently concerned that sustaining the District Court's order would authorize courts to compel third pa…

Key point: unreasonable burdens may not be imposed

The order also said:

"The order provided that the Company be fully reimbursed at prevailing rates, and compliance with it required minimal effort on the part of the Company and no disruption to its operations"

So the FBI could be expected to reimburse Apple for weakening its product and future earnings.

More details on that specific case as it relates to Apple vs. FBI are available from a post by a computer crime law professor [1]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#150

Post by pyrophane »

gravypod wrote: post #132

I'm confused. From what I understand apple has been doing this for some time. I even remember someone saying that apple did this many times before. Even if apple isn't the one doing this, there are also plenty of people who are familiar with low level vulnerabilities of iPhones that can essentially do the same tasks.

With devices running iOS 9 there are no known vulns that Apple or anyone else can exploit to unlock or get data off of a locked device. The government wants Apple to create a special, signed version of iOS that can be loaded onto iOS 9 devices that will allow it to bypass security measures designed to prevent brute-force unlock attempts and hopefully never fall into the wrong hands (because that would never happen, right?)
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