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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#111

Post by fooey »

jondubois wrote: post #89

What's wrong with the letting the government get access to the phones of a few potential criminals/terrorists?! I don't get what all the fuss is about. I don't fully trust the government, but I trust it far more than I trust Apple. Sometimes I feel like the whole Snowden thing is just an excuse for big corporations to keep all their data and analytics practices to themselves outside of the scrutiny of the government.…

If one person has a backdoor, everyone has a backdoor.

If the US government gets access, so does Russia and China and whoever else wants it.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#112

Post by mrdrozdov »

jMyles wrote: post #104

I think I need someone to explain this to me because none of this hype makes any sense. I am usually wary of oversimplifying these sorts of controversies, but this one does seem exceedingly simple to me. It goes like this: Is it possible, even with Apple's help, to break the encryption of without knowing the encryption key, given that the passphrase provides reasonable entropy? If the answer is other than a flat, una…

Apple can hypothetically upload an OS update enabling unlimited password attempts, so that the encryption key can be brute forced.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#113

Post by snowwrestler »

jondubois wrote: post #102
froo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the government getting access to a tool like this, Apple specifically doesn't want to create a tool that can easily defeat its own security, to then hand over to the FBI. The government has, on numerous occasions, shown it has some pretty horrible practises in securing information, and this kind of tool being let out into the wild is bad for For everyone (not just Apple). Why risk opening that Pandora'…

What tool? Apple can just give the government the private key for that specific phone. Done. Everyone else is still safe. Safer, I might add. So long as there is a clear process for the government to get access to specific keys for specific phones. If Apple is CAPABLE of building such a tool (and use it for themselves), then I think the government should have access to it too.

Apple does not have the key for that phone. No one does.

What the FBI is asking Apple to do is write software that will turn off the "wipe after 10 wrong passcodes" feature of iOS, so that the passcode can be brute-forced.

Setting aside the government's interest in such a tool, imagine the interest from hackers.

Consider that in 2011, someone hacked into RSA to steal info about their tokens, just so that they could then hack in Lockheed to steal top-secet info.

Now imagine someone hacks into Apple (very possible to happen) and steals the security-defeating software code to install on other iPhones.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#114

Post by id »

ktRolster wrote: post #93
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

The best way (IMO) is to make it unbreakable, and off by default. Then the people who care about privacy can have it, and the justice department can be happy most of the time.

Why do you think that this is the best way? Or do you mean the best way for the Justice Department?

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#115

Post by SanFranManDan »

ktRolster wrote: post #93
edraferi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes total sense that the givernment would use it's forensic capabilities whenever the need arises. The question at hand is: "can the All Writs Act compel a company to proactively defeat its own security measures?" The answer will apply to all cases. The more important question is "Should the government be able to access citizen's digital data with a court order? And if so, how can that be enabled without comprom…

The best way (IMO) is to make it unbreakable, and off by default. Then the people who care about privacy can have it, and the justice department can be happy most of the time.

But I am sure a large portion of the people involved in activities where the government wants their info will have it turned on. I'm sure if Snowden's phone was encrypted they wouldn't go "Oh well ~90% of americans dont have encryption turned on so we'll just be happy with that."

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#116

Post by id »

mratzloff wrote: post #108
ktRolster wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way (IMO) is to make it unbreakable, and off by default. Then the people who care about privacy can have it, and the justice department can be happy most of the time.

Then the people who care about privacy become targets.

They are already targets.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#117

Post by cmurf »

jondubois wrote: post #102
froo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the government getting access to a tool like this, Apple specifically doesn't want to create a tool that can easily defeat its own security, to then hand over to the FBI. The government has, on numerous occasions, shown it has some pretty horrible practises in securing information, and this kind of tool being let out into the wild is bad for For everyone (not just Apple). Why risk opening that Pandora'…

What tool? Apple can just give the government the private key for that specific phone. Done. Everyone else is still safe. Safer, I might add. So long as there is a clear process for the government to get access to specific keys for specific phones. If Apple is CAPABLE of building such a tool (and use it for themselves), then I think the government should have access to it too.

If you're asking what tool FBI wants (special weakened version of iOS), and suggesting Apple hand over a non-existent private key, then you don't understand the basics of the dispute.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#118

Post by randomfool »

fooey wrote: post #109

It seems hard for me to believe that Apple now has at least 10 instances where the government is trying to force them to decrypt their phones, and this hasn't happened with Google or MS yet. I don't recall ever hearing a big standoff with MS refusing to decrypt a Windows desktop or server. Is encryption just that much more common on Apple devices? or is Apple just the first ones to make this all public?

My understanding is that Android does not have the widespread use of HW-based encryption that Apple does.

The requirements for Android 5.0 had to be relaxed and Android 6.0 is barely available.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/10/android-6-0-re-implem...

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#119

Post by jMyles »

mrdrozdov wrote: post #112
jMyles wrote: post #104

I think I need someone to explain this to me because none of this hype makes any sense. I am usually wary of oversimplifying these sorts of controversies, but this one does seem exceedingly simple to me. It goes like this: Is it possible, even with Apple's help, to break the encryption of without knowing the encryption key, given that the passphrase provides reasonable entropy? If the answer is other than a flat, una…

Apple can hypothetically upload an OS update enabling unlimited password attempts, so that the encryption key can be brute forced.

Right - so that means that the iPhone is already broken, no?

...and, more to the point: when phones come out that don't have this vulnerability, none of this will matter, right?

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#120

Post by rsingel »

mikekchar wrote: post #55
update wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article seems to confirm that Law Enforcement is going to do its best to set a legal precedent. What do you think the odds are that the gov. wins?

I am not a lawyer (and not even an American), but from my perspective, I don't see how they can loose. They have a warrant. I used to work on telephone switches and we added code that would allow someone with a warrant to record conversations all the time. We even had a generic facility for it. The main difference, of course, is that adding an ability to allow someone to intrude on privacy for a service is different…

It is not settled law in the U.S. whether being forced to handover a password is "contempt of court" or actually self-incrimination protected by the Fifth Amendment.

Wiretaps ordered into the U.S. phone and internet networks via CALEA and FCC rulings, which basically meant that all network and phone switches internationally would have the back door. (See what happened to Greek politicians thanks to that). But the phone portion of those rules came from a very deliberate act of Congress. (Don't get me started on CALEA and the Internet...)

The All Writs act is vague as hell.

And there are definitely laws that require legal process; your telephone records, for one. That's why the Congress passed a law retroactively immunizing AT&T, Verizon, et. al. for helping the NSA collect communications data on American citizens in plain violation of communication privacy laws.

In this case, NOTHING is straightforward. Apple could win on First Amendment grounds; the assistance asked for could be determined to be too burdensome. The Fourth Amendment may not even be an issue.

I'm not even sure this will go to the Supreme Court. If the feds lose, they may well choose NOT to appeal on purpose so they can continue browbeating companies with All Writs act in other jurisdictions and under seal.

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