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Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

nytimes.com

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Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#81

Post by vectorjohn »

mikekchar wrote: post #55
update wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This article seems to confirm that Law Enforcement is going to do its best to set a legal precedent. What do you think the odds are that the gov. wins?

I am not a lawyer (and not even an American), but from my perspective, I don't see how they can loose. They have a warrant. I used to work on telephone switches and we added code that would allow someone with a warrant to record conversations all the time. We even had a generic facility for it. The main difference, of course, is that adding an ability to allow someone to intrude on privacy for a service is different…

The thing is, Apple made a phone with a backdoor. It has a backdoor already. Unlocked by apples software signing keys. If Apple wants to continue to do that, but wants to mostly respect their customers' privacy, they need to create a facility to unlock it selectively upon seeing a warrant. It really isn't that hard to do, since they can make firmware updates that only work on specific devices. It can and probably will be argues that this is exactly like wire tapping, where it is up to the telecom to actually demand a warrant before giving the gov access.

It would be neat if the supreme Court would say this is unconstitutional on some ground, because that would seem to apply to other forms of wiretapping. They aren't fundamentally different. I'm sure the first time the gov asked a company to help them install wire taps, it seemed like a big deal.

I think some people are being intellectually dishonest when they say a backdoor can't be created without sacrificing security for everyone else. It can be done such that your privacy on an iPhone is just as good after a backdoor is created as it was before. Which is to say, not perfect because Apple had the key either way. If you want real security use a good passcode and keep it in your head.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#82

Post by nickysielicki »

halter73 wrote: post #54
nickysielicki wrote: post #41

I think it's important to dispel this fiction that Apple will be "unlocking" anything. To use the word "unlock" seriously blurs the lines of what's going on here. They're merely asked to flash it with software that removes a delay in submitting passcodes and removes the wiping function after ten failures. That's not unlocking it. If Apple complies with the order, the FBI will still be getting an encrypted iPhone back…

A distinction without a difference. The FBI wouldn't ask for the modified software if it wouldn't allow them to easily unlock the phone.

Today FBI has the resources to desolder the chip and put it into all sorts of controllers where they can prod and poke at the encrypted data.

What if this guy used a long passcode? They're still going to try to get in, and the only difference is that they'll move the heavy lifting off of the iPhone and try to crack it with beefy computer. And to do that, they'll have to lift the chip off the SoC anyway.

My point is that when people say Apple will "unlock" the phone, it insinuates that the only thing standing between FBI and the data is Apple. And that isn't true. Even if Apple complies, they're they're not guaranteed to get in. Furthermore, Apple could comply and they still might find themselves pursuing an angle that they're already capable of. FBI are going through all these court hearings and process all for the sake of trying 0000-9999.

In other words, this is obviously bullshit on the side of the FBI. The question is why they're doing that. I suggest that it's not about legal precedent, because newer iPhones can't be undermined like this and the All Writs Act can't compell Apple to stop producing such devices, it can only (arguably) compell them to undermine devices if it's within their reach. (IANAL so please call me out if I'm wrong about that.)

I suspect it's about PR, because when they lose they can throw their hands up and the news pundits will scream about terrorists winning in our courts. Washington will then push their backdoor legislation that they've been asking for over the past few months.

Legal precedent isn't what they're after, IMHO. The legal precedent that would be set wouldn't be applicable to where things are headed. They're looking for public appeal.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#84

Post by Laaw »

cat-dev-null wrote: post #64
Laaw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you own a home? Do you own a car? The executive branch can obtain warrants from the judicial branch to "exploit vulnerabilities" and gain access to these "devices".

In the US, these are three distinctly different things: 1. A person's "papers," memories and life details typically lives as data on their personal smartphones and other devices. Currently, a phone/laptop seems to be treated as pocket lint and other personal property, so a warrant is typically not needed to access contents, i.e., airport enhanced security screening, traffic stop, etc. 2. Important papers may reside i…

There's nothing that makes the digital data on a phone any different or more private than the physical data in a filing cabinet in a home or office, both which require the same level of judicial oversight to obtain (your first point is factually incorrect with regard to this case, as the FBI does have a warrant to search this phone).

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#85

Post by vectorjohn »

ubernostrum wrote: post #71
mikekchar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer (and not even an American), but from my perspective, I don't see how they can loose. They have a warrant. I used to work on telephone switches and we added code that would allow someone with a warrant to record conversations all the time. We even had a generic facility for it. The main difference, of course, is that adding an ability to allow someone to intrude on privacy for a service is different…

The legal question here is really whether the All Writs Act can be used to compel development of new products with specific features law enforcement desires, because that's what it boils down to: they want a custom iOS build with custom security-bypass features that can be loaded onto any phone they want to snoop into. And when framed like that -- government ordering a private company, without negotiation or contract…

How is it different than getting a phone company to install a wire tap?

What you describe is not what's being asked for. What the FBI wants is a tool to get into this phone. They will definitely want to get into more phones in the future, but that's not the same as a single tool that gets into any phone. It can be a new one every time. If it wasn't possible to make such a tool, I'd be a lot more outraged. But it is. Tell me why that can't be done.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#86

Post by nickysielicki »

brians wrote: post #49
nickysielicki wrote: post #41

I think it's important to dispel this fiction that Apple will be "unlocking" anything. To use the word "unlock" seriously blurs the lines of what's going on here. They're merely asked to flash it with software that removes a delay in submitting passcodes and removes the wiping function after ten failures. That's not unlocking it. If Apple complies with the order, the FBI will still be getting an encrypted iPhone back…

If the new software they are to write also tried 10000 pass codes, would that count?

No, because if his password wasn't 0000-9999, Apple still would have complied with the order and the phone would still be encrypted.

They're not ordered to decrypt it. And I think when a layman hears "unlock", they're led to believe that means decrypt.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#87

Post by taneq »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #5
arrty88 wrote: post #2

> The Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance Jr., foreground, and New York City’s police commissioner, William J. Bratton, behind him, say they have about 175 iPhones they have been unable to unlock. Wait, how many have they been able to unlock and how? Sheer luck?

nah they have tools that can be embedded between the touchscreen and logic board, can be used to brute force https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meEyYFlSahk I naively thought it was a machine with a robotic finger, derp

Is this close enough to your original idea?

http://www.dashfest.com/?p=393

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#88

Post by taneq »

cat-dev-null wrote: post #64
Laaw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you own a home? Do you own a car? The executive branch can obtain warrants from the judicial branch to "exploit vulnerabilities" and gain access to these "devices".

In the US, these are three distinctly different things: 1. A person's "papers," memories and life details typically lives as data on their personal smartphones and other devices. Currently, a phone/laptop seems to be treated as pocket lint and other personal property, so a warrant is typically not needed to access contents, i.e., airport enhanced security screening, traffic stop, etc. 2. Important papers may reside i…

This badly needs to change, now that your "pocket lint" can store more data than an entire house full of filing cabinets.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#89

Post by jondubois »

What's wrong with the letting the government get access to the phones of a few potential criminals/terrorists?! I don't get what all the fuss is about.

I don't fully trust the government, but I trust it far more than I trust Apple.

Sometimes I feel like the whole Snowden thing is just an excuse for big corporations to keep all their data and analytics practices to themselves outside of the scrutiny of the government. Since when did the government become the enemy? There is something really twisted happening behind the scenes here.

Big corporations are manipulating us into thinking that the government is not to be trusted. But think about it; the government doesn't care about making a profit.

Without the government, the masses have no voice. I would gladly help society and let the government look through my phone if it will help prosecute a criminal.

Re: Justice Department Wants Apple to Unlock Nine More iPhones

#90

Post by URSpider94 »

vectorjohn wrote: post #81
mikekchar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer (and not even an American), but from my perspective, I don't see how they can loose. They have a warrant. I used to work on telephone switches and we added code that would allow someone with a warrant to record conversations all the time. We even had a generic facility for it. The main difference, of course, is that adding an ability to allow someone to intrude on privacy for a service is different…

The thing is, Apple made a phone with a backdoor. It has a backdoor already. Unlocked by apples software signing keys. If Apple wants to continue to do that, but wants to mostly respect their customers' privacy, they need to create a facility to unlock it selectively upon seeing a warrant. It really isn't that hard to do, since they can make firmware updates that only work on specific devices. It can and probably wil…

You misunderstand. Apple can't unlock the phone with the signing keys, all they can do is make it easier to brute-force the passcode. If this person had used a long passphrase instead of a 4-digit code, even this software hack wouldn't help.
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