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FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

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Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#91
post #67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the US Gov't can't break in and take this, once Apple has built it? They'll have to QA it, it'll be on at least a handful of machines---and the order requires it be network connected. At that point we should expect more world governments to get the key. Where does that end? Maybe with more companies having to demonstrate that they defend against their own subversion.

It can't be installed on any iOS device without Apple signing it at the time of installation. The software is useless without Apple's signing keys. Apple could sign it offline when installing to the device. The signature is customised to each device it's installed on, and has a nonce so it can't be saved.

I'm pretty certain you and rtpg don't understand stare decisis. This isn't about this specific phone, or even the methodology. This is about the FBI cherry-picking a nearly throwaway (in terms of probable data value) case to set precedent in what is obvious to practitioners as a continuation of their War on Cryptography.

The US legal system and education pertaining to it is largely composed of studying prior case law and its applications. Few cases (including this one) involve truly new decisions, and even those are usually novel applications of former decisions. That is what those who can see past their nose are concerned about. There is every probability that, in the near future, one or both of Apple or the judicial system will tire of the farce of one-phone-per-case firmware and request a new application of the law (because there would now be precedent).

To take any laywer-moderated statement (including Apple's) at face value belies credulity that does not become the HN audience. As others have pointed out, Comey's appeals to emotion and terrorism should be enough, but the idea that an FBI lawyer would advise pursuing this particular case in this particular manner without expecting to set precedent? Positively silly. This is what they do.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite a case where encryption has obstructed justice or prevented a crime from being solved?

Yes, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/12/opinion/apple-google-when-... Also I believe even without the citation that the notion that criminals can use encryption to protect themselves is pretty obvious.

[deleted]

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Just going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure James Comey isn't leafing through Hacker News reading our arguments. If he'd like to have a civil discussion, I'd be more than happy to bring the civility. Second, our system is essentially set up to make me powerless. It's actually engineered that way. I do what I can to educate people around me, but when it comes to voting or having any control over w…

I agree with you. The motives of those with access to this information is questionable and being forced to do things impedes personal liberty, but the people who wrote the constitution could have never imagined this type of situation. It quite literally requires an in-depth discussion by the people and those we trust in power to develop a solution, but the idea that no backdoor will ever exists is not realistic. Look…

> Look at history. The encryption the Nazis had created helped them commit terrible acts of war and it was the backdoor the Allies discovered that helped bring justice to them.

Are you suggesting the Nazi's were the only ones to use encryption during World War II?

You forgot to mention at least 9 other nations (including the USA)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_cryptography

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/12/opinion/apple-google-when-... Also I believe even without the citation that the notion that criminals can use encryption to protect themselves is pretty obvious.

Even more obvious is the notion that innocent civilians use encryption to protect themselves from mass survelence and needless data collection. Is the end goal no longer total information awareness? [0] Side note: that was a rather scathing and slanted article you cited. It would have been nice to see the simple facts of the case presented in a neutral light. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awarenes…

My point is that encryption is good and bad, but we can't completely enable it to be utilized for criminal activity. There will be the need for a resolution to be reached on who gets access to this information, in what situations, and maybe even strict prosecution if the information is ever used incorrectly.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. The motives of those with access to this information is questionable and being forced to do things impedes personal liberty, but the people who wrote the constitution could have never imagined this type of situation. It quite literally requires an in-depth discussion by the people and those we trust in power to develop a solution, but the idea that no backdoor will ever exists is not realistic. Look…

> Look at history. The encryption the Nazis had created helped them commit terrible acts of war and it was the backdoor the Allies discovered that helped bring justice to them. Are you suggesting the Nazi's were the only ones to use encryption during World War II? You forgot to mention at least 9 other nations (including the USA) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_cryptography

My point is to show how encryption in the wrong hands can also have terrible consequences.

This is a two way street.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more obvious is the notion that innocent civilians use encryption to protect themselves from mass survelence and needless data collection. Is the end goal no longer total information awareness? [0] Side note: that was a rather scathing and slanted article you cited. It would have been nice to see the simple facts of the case presented in a neutral light. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awarenes…

My point is that encryption is good and bad, but we can't completely enable it to be utilized for criminal activity. There will be the need for a resolution to be reached on who gets access to this information, in what situations, and maybe even strict prosecution if the information is ever used incorrectly.

Encryption is either secure or it isn't. You can't have a middle ground. It's unfortunate that under rare, and very particular circumstances criminals can perhaps evade crimes because they have access encryption, but it's also unfortunate that they can get away with crimes because they have access to guns, knives, vaults, cars, basements, gasoline, matches, duck tape, chain saws, shovels, etc...

Yet we don't cripple the effectiveness of these items for the sake of preventing crime. Doing so would only harm the quality of lives of the vast majority of innocent people who we trust to use these thing for their own benefit as free citizitens of a free country.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at history. The encryption the Nazis had created helped them commit terrible acts of war and it was the backdoor the Allies discovered that helped bring justice to them. Are you suggesting the Nazi's were the only ones to use encryption during World War II? You forgot to mention at least 9 other nations (including the USA) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_cryptography

My point is to show how encryption in the wrong hands can also have terrible consequences. This is a two way street.

> encryption in the wrong hands can also have terrible consequences.

So can literally anything in the wrong hands, though.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#98
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be installed on any iOS device without Apple signing it at the time of installation. The software is useless without Apple's signing keys. Apple could sign it offline when installing to the device. The signature is customised to each device it's installed on, and has a nonce so it can't be saved.

I'm pretty certain you and rtpg don't understand stare decisis. This isn't about this specific phone, or even the methodology. This is about the FBI cherry-picking a nearly throwaway (in terms of probable data value) case to set precedent in what is obvious to practitioners as a continuation of their War on Cryptography. The US legal system and education pertaining to it is largely composed of studying prior case law…

All I did was give some technical information. How did you conclude that I'm ignorant of law?

If a new case is not similar to this case, then this case doesn't count as precedent. If a new case is similar to this case, then the arguments put forward for this case apply to the new case, and we shouldn't care about precedent setting. If the new case is similar but different in important ways, then when that new case is fought, the lawyers point ou the substantive differences, and it doesn't count as precedent.

The only concern would seem to be if the future court fails to analyse a case properly. But they can fail regardless of what precedent is or is not set.

I don't think individual cases should be ruled improperly because of concern about the precedent effect. You might want meta-level rules (e.g. Bill of Rights, free speech), but the individual actors should not be taking them into account except insofar as they have been legislated (although the Supreme Court perhaps should).

TL;DR argue the damn object level.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#99
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, you could reasonably argue that if there is a master key in this situation, it is Apple's firmware signing key, which the company already possess and has been using as a consequence of its inadequately examined security model. Edit: LOL, downvotes because you don't like it. Apple made a bad design decision, and it's coming to bite them in the ass. Yeah, it sucks, but I'm not the one who designed the backdo…

Yes, Apple's signing key + the lack of user confirmation for OS updates is the master key + backdoor here. User confirmation has come in later OS updates it seems, so the actual backdoor has been closed.

That's good to hear.

Re: FBI Director Comments on San Bernardino Matter

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more obvious is the notion that innocent civilians use encryption to protect themselves from mass survelence and needless data collection. Is the end goal no longer total information awareness? [0] Side note: that was a rather scathing and slanted article you cited. It would have been nice to see the simple facts of the case presented in a neutral light. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Information_Awarenes…

My point is that encryption is good and bad, but we can't completely enable it to be utilized for criminal activity. There will be the need for a resolution to be reached on who gets access to this information, in what situations, and maybe even strict prosecution if the information is ever used incorrectly.

[deleted]
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