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The Unsuitability of English (2015)

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Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though the gendered nouns and verb conjugations are a chore. No language is perfect.

Perfect is the enemy of better. English has verb conjugations too. Grab, grabbed, grabbing etc. While we do have a few gendered nouns such as blonde vs blond. I will grant you gendered nouns on the whole, but you're still only standing on one leg (gendered nouns) which is a relic but overshadowed by any number of facts in Spanish's favor. Spanish is mostly phonetic, which for dyslexics makes them easier to learn. Thi…

English conjugation is much simpler, there are usually only one to two forms per tense instead of six.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#112

This article from 23 November 2015 was followed up by a 3 December 2015 article by the same author (professor of linguistics Geoffrey Pullum) titled "English and Its Undeserved Good Luck," previously discussed on Hacker News.[1] The author is a renowned and very influential scholar of the English language, co-editor of the most authoritative grammar of the English language, the The Cambridge Grammar of the English La…

English is easier than many languages: it doesn't have gendered nouns or adjectives almost at all (thank goodness), it doesn't have noun declensions, it doesn't have many verb conjugations (hello Russian!). It's biggest pain is tricky spelling and a list of irregular verbs.

The problem with English is you have to memorise the vocabulary multiple times, you have to memorise the word, often how it declines, and also do the above for written because they way it's spelled and spoken is usually not consistant. Not to mention the fact that there are tons of words which sound almost identical but have different meanings. You're deriding Russian for having issues, and yes it's complicated, but once you learn the rules you can largely speak it. Words sound as they are spelt for the most part, decline predictably based on rules, and you can often figure out a word based on what it is built from. So all you need to do is learn the rules and build up your vocabulary, the rules for declension are consistant as are the spelling.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#113
post #85

Perhaps the time has come to start using phonetic spellings (e.g. An English specific subset of the International Phonetic Alphabet) in at least some contexts, such as signage. Wales would be a good place to start. If someone here has the patience to translate, "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" into IPA phonetic English I'd sure appreciate it. On second thought, maybe we should leave the We…

Phonetic alphabets have strong precedents - and have had strong backers - in English as well. See the Shavian alphabet[1] for a relatively recent example. Others were drawn up by such as Benjamin Franklin and Sir Isaac Pitman, famed for his shorthand.

One of the greatest impediments to these systems was that, while pronunciation may be picked up from spelling in a so-called phonemic system (assuming a bog-standard means of determining stress, which English doesn't have), spelling does not always follow from pronunciation - not unless you happen to speak precisely the English that the standards body prefers. English phonology, particularly when it comes to vowels, varies so wildly from place to place that any new, purportedly simpler system will be met with resistance from the majority of speakers to whom the system seems to be wrong, messy, and arbitrary. As a simple and common example, that of 'Mary, merry, and marry': do you collapse these three vowels, as many English speakers do, thus frustrating those who would like to make the distinction in print; or do you retain the three and in doing so create three new arbitrary-seeming spellings for words that to many speakers are homophones? Do you, as in Shavian, retain an R at the ends of "star" and "mother," or do you bow to common British pronunciations and excise these in spelling as in speech - something another phonetician, Henry Sweet[2], would have recommended?

(We see something similar in the promotion of and resistance to new programming languages: fixing some problems is not always enough to attract adopters away from a language which is at least doing the job. Imperfections stand out in novel tools, even if other improvements have been made and the imperfections are nothing new.)

Shorthand authors were well aware of the difficulties in teaching a "phonography," or phoneme-based system, to a duplicitous student body. This is one of the reasons that many English shorthand systems do away with almost all vowels, except perhaps to indicate where the vowel occurs and what broad family of like sounds it belongs to. Of course, eliminating vowels is one of the best ways to promote speed in writing; but there was also the problem that, where writing a vowel was desired (e.g. to differentiate 'tarp' from 'trap'), not all students will agree on which symbol ought to be used for each vowel sound - the sound varying from person to person, even within the same county or town. These shorthand systems were left ambiguous on purpose, so that teaching speed might be improved alongside writing speed. No need for a student to learn whether the first vowel in 'father' is indeed the same as the one in 'bought' - and from whose mouth, anyway?

It is possible that in an IPA-based system, English spelling may differ from person to person as widely as pronunciation does. Surely, however, that would make things more difficult for second-language learners than having to contend with one standard that happens to be riddled with inconsistencies? (Or perhaps not?)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Sweet

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfect is the enemy of better. English has verb conjugations too. Grab, grabbed, grabbing etc. While we do have a few gendered nouns such as blonde vs blond. I will grant you gendered nouns on the whole, but you're still only standing on one leg (gendered nouns) which is a relic but overshadowed by any number of facts in Spanish's favor. Spanish is mostly phonetic, which for dyslexics makes them easier to learn. Thi…

English conjugation is much simpler, there are usually only one to two forms per tense instead of six.

Yes, but that has advantages of its own including you can speak more concisely in Spanish. Thus even that isn't a complete negative and it's probably Spanish's most difficult aspect to learn. English is going to lose to Spanish in a linguistic head-to-head on almost all fronts other than the fact it's more popular (a big deal in itself but that's not what we're discussing).

As someone who speaks both, and picked up Spanish later on in life (post-30), the fact I appreciate Spanish more as a language is a testament to its great design.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#115
post #3

This is utter rubbish. Nobody learns to speak any language as an adult without an accent. That has nothing to do with phonological complexity, that's just how we're wired. Spanish may be easy to describe on a blackboard, but don't tell me that people who learn Spanish as a second language later on don't have accents. And languages don't succeed because of linguistics, they succeed because of politics. As someone whos…

> Nobody learns to speak any language as an adult without an accent. Nobody speaks any language without an accent. However, I've managed to convince native Spanish speakers that I was from Spain (later I had trouble convincing them that Spanish was my second language). Most people don't get rid of their foreign sounding accent because they don't work on improving their accent.

I find it super difficult to find the tools to do that. There are no courses for it no books, and people don't tell you that you're pronouncing something wrong because they think it would be unpolite.

I'd love to hear some tips on how to work on improving my accent. I moved to Sweden 10 years ago and Swedish is my 4th language.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on a conference call the other day with A gaggle people trying to fix a technical problem. We had a Brit, 4-5 accents/language competencies from India, a Chinese person, a heavily accented Vietnamese person, heavy Boston speaker, various NYC and "lunged idland" dialects and a Texan. It was a nightmare, and we were separated by a common language. But somehow, we understood enough to get it done.

Yep. Often it is the native speakers that are the worst problem in cases like this. We tend to fall into “higher” English and use uncommon words or idioms. I have been in many situations where the non-native speakers talk to each other with no problem, but they get lost with my contribution.

I wonder if taught English is more standardised than native English. I can certainly think of things I hear regularly that might surprise even a native speaker. Couple of examples:

- The informal form of 'you' persists to some extent in parts of Yorkshire - "Where are you going?" often becomes "Where's tha goin'?"

- There is slang that I rarely hear outside of my immediate family (though I suspect it's more common than I realise) - "seef" for example (from "see if"), "I was seeing if it was in the car" is almost always "I was seefing it was in the car"

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#117
post #106

The central axiom of linguistics is that no language is inherently more expressive than another. Yes, that means that conjugation and declension is no more complicated than strict word order. Grammatical gender provides redundancy, and conjugation allows for subject pro-drop. Orthography has nothing to do with the actual spoken language and things like "phonetic" pronunciation are not really an intrinsic feature of a…

Let's say we pick a random person and make them learn a completely unrelated language. Sometimes they will learn faster than others, like Spanish or Swahili vs English or Mandarin. Why would we expect them all to be the same difficulty?

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#118
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true. And since you've gone the intellectual route, I'll choose the emotional one: I propose the Dutch don't like English because their language is also bastardization of different languages. As a defensive mechanism, they're picking on English to distract everyone from their soddy language. :) Sure, the writer's English, but he had to pander to the locals.

I did not get from TFA that the Dutch don't like English. Also I don't think that's true at all (source: I'm Dutch). According to an older HN submission (can't find it right now) the netherlands is, with the exception of the UK, the country with the highest percentage of people speaking English (96%), and I don't know of anyone not liking it.

Good to know it is just this organization having the awful ideas. ;)

Btw- I've worked with some great Dutch developers and am in awe of all of the talent there from the things I've seen over the years. The language isn't bad either. :) Just saying it's a mutt language like English, but mutts are good things. Diversity is a strength, not a weakness.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main beef is that English is, for lack of better words, imprecise. This leads to many examples of miscommunication that take so longer to unravel.

no it isn't and no it doesn't. All natural languages carry a large portion of ambiguity, to the extend that Steven Pinker even count ambiguity as a defining factor of natural language!

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I’ll never know.

Try saying that in Japanese or Chinese. Not the same effect.

Re: The Unsuitability of English (2015)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is easier than many languages: it doesn't have gendered nouns or adjectives almost at all (thank goodness), it doesn't have noun declensions, it doesn't have many verb conjugations (hello Russian!). It's biggest pain is tricky spelling and a list of irregular verbs.

English still declines personal pronouns; I, me, mine; he, him, his; she, her, hers; it, it, its; we, us, ours; they, them, theirs.

Yeah, but you'll still be understood easily if you fail to do so.
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