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Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

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Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#11

Post by solipsism »

cushychicken wrote: post #3

Reading the precursor essay, "Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" begs a pretty big question: if the author has such a clear picture of the structural flaws inherent in software development organizations, why isn't he out there starting his own firm and hiring all of these mistreated, misunderstood developers and making a killing off of all of their limitless creativity?

Elsewhere you said, A good start is to call out misogyny when you see it. Why does that go for dealing with misogeny but not the issues the author is concerned with?

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#12

Post by JanneVee »

cushychicken wrote: post #3

Reading the precursor essay, "Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" begs a pretty big question: if the author has such a clear picture of the structural flaws inherent in software development organizations, why isn't he out there starting his own firm and hiring all of these mistreated, misunderstood developers and making a killing off of all of their limitless creativity?

"Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" isn't about capturing value of others. He isn't peddling a work place or fix, and it makes it a honest post. It is a verbalization of what some developers including me feel are wrong. Bryan isn't right in every word but it gives some solace to me that I'm not alone.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#13

Post by FLUX-YOU »

majewsky wrote: post #4
pmarreck wrote: post #2

While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative. Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to steer towards that side, involuntarily? Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your consciousness towards more…

> Stop being obsessed with [...] depression. So you're one of the persons who would suggest to clinically depressed people to "just smile again" as if that would magically solve all their problems and mental disorders? The point is that even if such people are a minority, we should treat them with the appropriate discretion and be sensitive to their psychological needs.

>The point is that even if such people are a minority, we should treat them with the appropriate discretion and be sensitive to their psychological needs.

Which should not involve radically changing the "commercial software shop" because some individuals do not do well in that environment (or worse, blaming it systemic abuse) as the article says. The only role that businesses should be doing here is keeping the issues confidential and allowing them to get the help that they need.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#14

Post by erik_landerholm »

Yes being a startup founder is stressful. Before joining YC I ran through my 401k, my cofounder almost lost his house and we had two little kids each at the time. To join YC we left our wives and kids in Portland and moved into an office next to drug dealers (YC only gave 5k per founder at that time), etc, etc.

Not everyone can handle stress like that...I'm not sure I could ever do that again. You have to know what you can handle and what you can't.

I'm sure there are abuses of engineers in the valley, but it's not indentured servitude. This article makes it sound like these people were slaves with no options...that's categorically untrue except maybe in Aaron schwart's and Turing's cases.

Also, how many software engineers in the valley or other places are happy with their jobs? I bet it's a higher percentage than say work at McDonald's....

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#15

Post by crdoconnor »

cushychicken wrote: post #3

Reading the precursor essay, "Living in the Age of Software Fuckery" begs a pretty big question: if the author has such a clear picture of the structural flaws inherent in software development organizations, why isn't he out there starting his own firm and hiring all of these mistreated, misunderstood developers and making a killing off of all of their limitless creativity?

>Why isn't he out there starting his own firm

Probably because access to capital, connections, luck and the ability to sell are more critical than good ideas.

You don't think that Uber could have been you if you'd 'just written a ride sharing app' in 2008 do you? :)

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#16

Post by pmarreck »

majewsky wrote: post #4
pmarreck wrote: post #2

While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative. Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to steer towards that side, involuntarily? Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your consciousness towards more…

> Stop being obsessed with [...] depression. So you're one of the persons who would suggest to clinically depressed people to "just smile again" as if that would magically solve all their problems and mental disorders? The point is that even if such people are a minority, we should treat them with the appropriate discretion and be sensitive to their psychological needs.

> who would suggest to clinically depressed people to "just smile again" as if that would magically solve all their problems and mental disorders?

No. I'm not saying that at all, and tried to point that out. But something like 75% of this article is focusing squarely on unhappiness. That's all I'm saying. If all you do is write about unhappiness and end up suiciding, is it really that surprising? Your body is what you consume physically; your mind is what you consume media-wise. If all you do is read Sylvia Plath poetry all day, and then write poetry inspired by Sylvia Plath, then you may in fact end up just like she did.

What tipped me off is that he even said he wanted to suicide dozens of times. Which on the one hand, is kind of "TMI" for an article like this, and on the other hand... so why are you reading about other suicides?

That is what I'm saying.

That, and most of the people cited already had diagnosable mental difficulties, which means he is openly confusing the apparent proximal cause between "oppressed IT person" and "is emotionally-challenged already"

One night not too long ago, I couldn't sleep, and for whatever reason I decided to watch 9/11 videos on YouTube. Guess what happened? I fell asleep and had nightmares, and for the next day(s) I was depressed as hell. I surely didn't function as well as I could and, dare I say it, I am sure I brought less goodness into the world as a result. All because I focused on watching 9/11 videos and listening to final phone calls and watching people fall to their deaths from great heights, one night.

It's worldview distortion, basically. Yes, bad things happen and sometimes, bosses are jerks. Yes, some people have emotional difficulties (some of which should be treated clinically). Yes, IT careers seem to draw in a bumper-crop of sensitive folks (it's the curse of high intelligence, really). From this, you cannot draw the conclusion that there is a systematic problem going on.

Disclaimer: I'm diagnosed ADD, AND sleep apnea, and (sometimes) take meds for it (on bad days when I really need to function), so I'm not the kind of person who wouldn't understand that some things just need treatment.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#17

Post by Smudge »

erik_landerholm wrote: post #14

Yes being a startup founder is stressful. Before joining YC I ran through my 401k, my cofounder almost lost his house and we had two little kids each at the time. To join YC we left our wives and kids in Portland and moved into an office next to drug dealers (YC only gave 5k per founder at that time), etc, etc. Not everyone can handle stress like that...I'm not sure I could ever do that again. You have to know what y…

There's a survivorship bias in what you describe. How many others in your position, who perhaps thought they knew what they could handle, did end up losing their houses, and/or racked up years and years of debt on a gamble that didn't end up paying off? It's something we don't really talk about in this industry, but I suspect it happens more often than the success stories.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#18

Post by mrottenkolber »

I find the notion that humans can be more or less inhumane troubling. Its really just arbitrary segregation whose only use I can imagine is to dehumanize persons. Same goes for calling people sociopaths etc. Everybody does what they think is best, for them and for the world. Somebody in politics is way stupider than you and thus ruins the world... that's an opinion, and an understandable one too. But is it productive?

That being said I absolutely agree with the sentiment of the article. Humans haven't yet figured out how to live together in cooperation instead of violence, and changing this is the most important goal we have. We must actively protest injustice, and create spaces were we can live in self determination. Join your local anarchist movement, make up your own mind, learn and work together with others so we can someday create a social fabric that is open and peaceful.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#19

Post by miserable1980 »

solipsism wrote: post #9
codyb wrote: post #7

This article more seemed to suggest that extremely intelligent people are more likely to get into trouble than any apparent root cause to me. In Schwartz and Turing's case, while the law was misguided, it compounded their stressors and took their lives. In the one fellows case he apparently broke into someone's house wasted and was arrested. And there was the guy announcing his suicide on twitter (that might be the s…

To paraphrase Nietzsche, to live is to experience stressors. The changes you're talking about might (might!) lower the number of stressors in people's lives and thus have an overall positive impact on mental health, but a better path toward that goal, in my opinion, is to encourage people to seek the help necessary to deal with stressors. Edit: you did mention making mental healthcare accessible, but it wasn't the br…

When I started software (90s), the tech industry didn't pay that well but did have a strong geek culture. I felt my managers didn't understand the work I did but they left me alone to do it. Timelines were in months and you largely self-managed yourself. Tools weren't great but didn't change very much. Integration testing was done by a separate QA function and programmers would slack off a little bit when it came to proper unit testing and documentation.

I miss that world (with perhaps one exception - that has to do with women in the field). Today, we have:

1) Insane deadline pressures 2) Managers asking for constant status updates 3) A general culture where people are on call outside of work hours or supposed to be reachable 4) While programmer salaries are high, they have essentially kept up with inflation. Under fields are generally worse off I admit. 5) No QA depts for the most part 6) Expectation that developers need to be more "professional" rather than produce great software. 7) Reduced employment mobility because developer interviews seem to have an insane standard. As a reference, for most jobs I got until 2005, I had a 30 minute to 1 hour interview with no coding questions. 8) 2-3 week shipping cycles (I posit scrum deadlines are like shipping deadline of old) 9) constant change in the tools of the trade. IT JUST NEVER ENDS.

So what happened? I think the end of the dot com era produced a few elite companies like Google. There was a cargo cult mentality that has turned most of software development into the same.

When people ask, I don't recommend a career in software any more. It definitely leads to unhealthy habits in average/above average people and, unless you have strong social ties, probably induces depression in many people. If you are an elite, Harvard-level, Google-level person, sure .. welcome to the gauntlet and have fun. For sane, average/above average people, I don't know what to say. There are few other paths that lead to financial stability these days. The software industry gives decent financial stability but extols a heavy cost in many.

Re: Systemic abuse in the software industry is ruining lives… and taking them.

#20

Post by pmarreck »

solipsism wrote: post #8
pmarreck wrote: post #2

While these were all tragic, they are hardly representative. Do you know how when you ride a bicycle and look off to one side, you tend to steer towards that side, involuntarily? Stop being obsessed with oppression, depression and suicide. Not to downplay them, but you have free will (oh, debatable, sure, but it's better for happiness to just believe you do) and can act, and can steer your consciousness towards more…

I agree with your first sentence. Alan Turing's death especially can't be attributed to abuse in the software industry. The rest of your comment is not only condescending, it is baseless. Your premise that the author should think happy thoughts and he will be okay if not as helpful as you may think. The author may or may not suffer from a depression/mood disorder, or even many other more serious conditions. You don't…

I can no longer edit what I wrote, so I followed up in the thread trying to clarify my position.
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