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For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

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Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#61

Post by ASinclair »

natrius wrote: post #45
skewart wrote: post #15

Is it just me or does it seem like a lot of media outlets really, really want to see a big tech downturn? I want to say to the collective writers ofthe WSJ, the NYT, and everyone else, "stop trying to make a bubble happen, it's not going to happen." I get that a bursting bubble would be dramatic, and would make for lots of compelling stories. But there are plenty of other exciting and interesting things going on in t…

In addition to widespread tech worker antipathy, people expect history to rhyme. People know what a tech bubble story sounds like, and they'll buy tickets for the sequel. Eventually everyone will realize that it's not a tech bubble, it's an asset bubble that was intentionally inflated to buy us time to prevent a depression, but we didn't do much with the time. http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke2…

> Eventually everyone will realize that it's not a tech bubble, it's an asset bubble that was intentionally inflated to buy us time to prevent a depression, but we didn't do much with the time.

Seriously. Overlay the S&P 500 over that graph of "Median valuation of U.S. startups". They look mighty similar.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#62

Post by tibiapejagala »

robryan wrote: post #8

The office environment in the picture looks terrible. Not only is it open plan but there seems to be barely enough room to setup a couple of screens and a laptop.

And laptop on a silly stand right in front of every person, while they have two perfectly fine screens and separate mouse and keyboard.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#63

Post by skewart »

ditonal wrote: post #55
seibelj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? When the entire country has been forced to endure decades of stagnant wages, crippling debt, and the two major presidential candidates are a socialist and a fascist, you are surprised that people want the most babied, prima donna group of workers to ever walk the earth to get their comeuppance? An entire group of engineers who complain about 6 figure salaries and how hard it is to live on them? I'm one of…

By what metrics are engineers the most babied in the world? Certainly by metrics of the Silicon Valley PR machine that pays them, would greatly prefer to pay them less, to blame them for the housing crisis, and to use as a debate piece for advocating for infinite H1Bs (but certainly not green cards - those employees have rights). But not by any real metric. Go walk around an open-office plan filled to the brim with p…

Amen.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#64

Post by gozur88 »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #32
skewart wrote: post #15

Is it just me or does it seem like a lot of media outlets really, really want to see a big tech downturn? I want to say to the collective writers ofthe WSJ, the NYT, and everyone else, "stop trying to make a bubble happen, it's not going to happen." I get that a bursting bubble would be dramatic, and would make for lots of compelling stories. But there are plenty of other exciting and interesting things going on in t…

I dunno. These sort of things have been quite destructive. I am not calling the tech sector a tulip market, but the Dutch tulip mania stands as quite an incredible event. It effectively ended Holland as an imperial power. It also inspired "Picture This" by Joseph Heller, which is worth reading.

>It effectively ended Holland as an imperial power.

That's quite an exaggeration. What ended Holland's foray into imperialism was the Anglo-Dutch wars which started fifteen years later in 1652.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#65

Post by abecedarius »

ditonal wrote: post #55
seibelj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? When the entire country has been forced to endure decades of stagnant wages, crippling debt, and the two major presidential candidates are a socialist and a fascist, you are surprised that people want the most babied, prima donna group of workers to ever walk the earth to get their comeuppance? An entire group of engineers who complain about 6 figure salaries and how hard it is to live on them? I'm one of…

By what metrics are engineers the most babied in the world? Certainly by metrics of the Silicon Valley PR machine that pays them, would greatly prefer to pay them less, to blame them for the housing crisis, and to use as a debate piece for advocating for infinite H1Bs (but certainly not green cards - those employees have rights). But not by any real metric. Go walk around an open-office plan filled to the brim with p…

I suppose another factor about programmers is that they're nerds; raising nerd status upsets the natural order.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#66

Post by mdorazio »

ditonal wrote: post #55
seibelj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? When the entire country has been forced to endure decades of stagnant wages, crippling debt, and the two major presidential candidates are a socialist and a fascist, you are surprised that people want the most babied, prima donna group of workers to ever walk the earth to get their comeuppance? An entire group of engineers who complain about 6 figure salaries and how hard it is to live on them? I'm one of…

By what metrics are engineers the most babied in the world? Certainly by metrics of the Silicon Valley PR machine that pays them, would greatly prefer to pay them less, to blame them for the housing crisis, and to use as a debate piece for advocating for infinite H1Bs (but certainly not green cards - those employees have rights). But not by any real metric. Go walk around an open-office plan filled to the brim with p…

By what metrics? Job availability, for one. Can you provide an example of another profession where someone with 2-3 years of experience can quit their high-paying job and have recruiters calling the same day to entice them to a new one?

Education requirement, for another. Your examples all require advanced degrees from prestigious schools, multiple years of low wage grunt work, and/or a proven track record before hitting the high salary mark you seem to think is the default. Meanwhile, 22 year olds graduating from college with a CS degree and zero years of experience are getting six figure offers.

Work environment, for a third. Think you can be a doctor and work from home when you feel like it, or have Nerf wars with your coworkers after grabbing a beer from the office-provided kegerator?

SF and SV engineers are spoiled. Spoiled by market conditions that have combined to make right now an unprecedented good time for people who like writing code. Meanwhile, the other 98ish percent of Americans continue to get a poor deal. That's no one's fault, it's just the way economics has gone over the last few years. But it's no surprise that a large number of people want engineers to have to work with the same conditions as everyone else. I mean, can you really say with a straight face that someone writing yet another version of Tinder or whatever is providing more "value", as you put it, than a teacher?

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#68

Post by ArkyBeagle »

gozur88 wrote: post #64
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. These sort of things have been quite destructive. I am not calling the tech sector a tulip market, but the Dutch tulip mania stands as quite an incredible event. It effectively ended Holland as an imperial power. It also inspired "Picture This" by Joseph Heller, which is worth reading.

>It effectively ended Holland as an imperial power. That's quite an exaggeration. What ended Holland's foray into imperialism was the Anglo-Dutch wars which started fifteen years later in 1652.

I'd have chose "oversimplifiction" well ahead of "exaggeration".

But yes, yes, yes. I could not agree more.

Heller's book is the last thing I'd read on it, and it emphasizes the economic well over the... naval.

As an American, we tend to attribute military success to economic power.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#69

Post by ditonal »

mdorazio wrote: post #66
ditonal wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what metrics are engineers the most babied in the world? Certainly by metrics of the Silicon Valley PR machine that pays them, would greatly prefer to pay them less, to blame them for the housing crisis, and to use as a debate piece for advocating for infinite H1Bs (but certainly not green cards - those employees have rights). But not by any real metric. Go walk around an open-office plan filled to the brim with p…

By what metrics? Job availability, for one. Can you provide an example of another profession where someone with 2-3 years of experience can quit their high-paying job and have recruiters calling the same day to entice them to a new one? Education requirement, for another. Your examples all require advanced degrees from prestigious schools, multiple years of low wage grunt work, and/or a proven track record before hit…

Tech workers have it better than many, worse than some. But hardly the most spoiled ever.

If you're the type of person who values kegerators and nerf wars more than salary, benefits, and professional status, then I can see how you would have your perspective. I can only guess you're much younger than some of us. Personally, I'd rather finish my work and leave the office to go home and buy my own beer with a bigger paycheck than act like I'm in a frat-house.

As for comparing someone writing a dating app to a teacher, I in no way implied that programmers create more value than teachers, or that somehow salary directly reflects the value people contribute to the world. But I think both contribute some value, and neither deserves to get demonized for just doing their job or even advocating for their own interests.

Re: For Silicon Valley, the Hangover Begins

#70

Post by shitgoose »

ditonal wrote: post #55
seibelj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? When the entire country has been forced to endure decades of stagnant wages, crippling debt, and the two major presidential candidates are a socialist and a fascist, you are surprised that people want the most babied, prima donna group of workers to ever walk the earth to get their comeuppance? An entire group of engineers who complain about 6 figure salaries and how hard it is to live on them? I'm one of…

By what metrics are engineers the most babied in the world? Certainly by metrics of the Silicon Valley PR machine that pays them, would greatly prefer to pay them less, to blame them for the housing crisis, and to use as a debate piece for advocating for infinite H1Bs (but certainly not green cards - those employees have rights). But not by any real metric. Go walk around an open-office plan filled to the brim with p…

Engineers to the brim are the backdrop, the least important component of the stage. Startup ecosystem is one of the holes where roaming capital is sunk. Who benefits? VC, lawyers, bankers (smart ones). Engineers? Who gives a shit about them. They are part of the decoration, dangled in front of investors, like animated gif. It is all a game of collecting money from investors. So don't be too hard on yourself.

Doctors and lawyers, on the other hand are a monopoly, with artificially high entry barrier.

Teachers, firefighters, police... Another monopoly on grand scale. A separate topic...

It all comes down to various monopolies and extraction of funds from public through them.

Having said that, I believe that engineers, albeit being used in startup scam as a bait, still are one of the last few free market forces left, where no credentials matter, where there are no bars or societies, just skills and experience.

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