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Harper Lee has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Harper Lee has died

#121

Post by LanguageGamer »

dvt wrote: post #119
cm2012 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in fact being a huge literature snob saying that it's insulting to even compare the two. To Kill a Mockingbird was culture changing because it touched on such an important issue to American culture (race relations, etc.), while also being a well written book grounded in the human spirit. It is not objectively better written than ASOIAF, which has surprising depth and a keen understanding of the human spirit i…

I think it's fairly obvious that TKAMB is objectively better than ASOIAF. What next? You'll tell me that Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' isn't objectively better than Dan Brown's 'The Da Vinci Code'? Or that 'The Grapes of Wrath' isn't objectively better than 'Fifty Shades of Grey'? I don't buy your bullshit relativism.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective?

I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone.

(Edit: Typo)

Re: Harper Lee has died

#122

Post by thaifighter »

cm2012 wrote: post #68
dvt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to be some literature snob, but GRRM can't hold a candle to the profound impact Harper Lee has had on American culture as a whole (not to mention that she won a Pulitzer and a Presidential Freedom Medal). It's almost insulting even bringing up a quote from ASOIAF.

You are in fact being a huge literature snob saying that it's insulting to even compare the two. To Kill a Mockingbird was culture changing because it touched on such an important issue to American culture (race relations, etc.), while also being a well written book grounded in the human spirit. It is not objectively better written than ASOIAF, which has surprising depth and a keen understanding of the human spirit i…

I think he's right. Harper Lee was supremely significant and impactful. GRRM is just entertaining. If they wrote exactly the same, it would still read better coming from her.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#123

Post by santaclause33 »

dvt wrote: post #119
cm2012 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in fact being a huge literature snob saying that it's insulting to even compare the two. To Kill a Mockingbird was culture changing because it touched on such an important issue to American culture (race relations, etc.), while also being a well written book grounded in the human spirit. It is not objectively better written than ASOIAF, which has surprising depth and a keen understanding of the human spirit i…

I think it's fairly obvious that TKAMB is objectively better than ASOIAF. What next? You'll tell me that Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' isn't objectively better than Dan Brown's 'The Da Vinci Code'? Or that 'The Grapes of Wrath' isn't objectively better than 'Fifty Shades of Grey'? I don't buy your bullshit relativism.

Your other examples are obvious. This one is not.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#124

Post by dvt »

LanguageGamer wrote: post #121
dvt wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fairly obvious that TKAMB is objectively better than ASOIAF. What next? You'll tell me that Dante Alighieri's 'Divine Comedy' isn't objectively better than Dan Brown's 'The Da Vinci Code'? Or that 'The Grapes of Wrath' isn't objectively better than 'Fifty Shades of Grey'? I don't buy your bullshit relativism.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective? I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone. (Edit: Typo)

> in what sense is that assessment objective?

There's no easy way of answering that on this kind of medium (an Internet forum). I took two graduate seminars and wrote several papers on it :) But as a primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the standard of taste': http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Hume/hmMPL23.html

In that essay, he attempts to provide some clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of art, food, and literature.

(Note that there ARE people that are relativists and they have a somewhat compelling argument. That's perfectly fine. I just don't buy it and I think they're wrong.)

Re: Harper Lee has died

#125

Post by santaclause33 »

dvt wrote: post #124
LanguageGamer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective? I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone. (Edit: Typo)

> in what sense is that assessment objective? There's no easy way of answering that on this kind of medium (an Internet forum). I took two graduate seminars and wrote several papers on it :) But as a primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the standard of taste': http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Hume/hmMPL23.html In that essay, he attempts to provide some clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of ar…

Instead of saying, "It's too complicated to explain", why don't you give it a shot?

Re: Harper Lee has died

#126

Post by d4rkph1b3r »

dvt wrote: post #39
3minus1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer George R.R. Martin “Bran thought about it. 'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?' 'That is the only time a man can be brave,' his father told him.”

Not trying to be some literature snob, but GRRM can't hold a candle to the profound impact Harper Lee has had on American culture as a whole (not to mention that she won a Pulitzer and a Presidential Freedom Medal). It's almost insulting even bringing up a quote from ASOIAF.

>but GRRM can't hold a candle to the profound impact Harper Lee has had on American culture

Yes, but it has what, a 35 year head start? I don't think that your assertion being true is relevant to the literary merit of GRRM.

I've read Harper Lee (and a lot of literature in general), GRRM is fantastic. A more apt comparison might be to Dostoevsky, as the concepts Martin wants to explore are less related to our culture and more to do with fundamental issues mankind has wrestled with for much longer.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#127

Post by LanguageGamer »

dvt wrote: post #124
LanguageGamer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective? I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone. (Edit: Typo)

> in what sense is that assessment objective? There's no easy way of answering that on this kind of medium (an Internet forum). I took two graduate seminars and wrote several papers on it :) But as a primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the standard of taste': http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Hume/hmMPL23.html In that essay, he attempts to provide some clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of ar…

Thanks for the recommendation! I will definitely read that. I've no formal education in this area, but have read Hume's "An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding", and got quite a lot out of it.

Re: Harper Lee has died

#128

Post by leoc »

terryterrywhite wrote: post #84
ldd wrote: post #29

“Real courage is when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and see it through no matter what.” That is one of my favorite quotes of all times, specifically taking into account the setting of the book.

What does it mean to be 'licked'?

'Lick' is an old slang term for 'blow', in the a-blow-was-struck sense. That's why the title of the Rolling Stones' greatest-hits album https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Licks is a three-way pun. 'Forty licks' is a proverbial term for a particular kind of corporal punishment: forty blows of the cane or whatever. Or see "The Return of Ulysses", the final chapter of The Wind in the Willows: http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/grol/grahame/wind12.htm

Re: Harper Lee has died

#129

Post by kbenson »

dvt wrote: post #124
LanguageGamer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of the comparative merit of these works, in what sense is that assessment objective? I believe TKAMB is worth advocating for, and even reflecting that worth in our institutions, for example by making one required reading instead of the other. But I can also imagine individual circumstances where ASOIAF is a more important and worthwhile experience for someone. (Edit: Typo)

> in what sense is that assessment objective? There's no easy way of answering that on this kind of medium (an Internet forum). I took two graduate seminars and wrote several papers on it :) But as a primer, I strongly suggest reading Hume's 'Of the standard of taste': http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Hume/hmMPL23.html In that essay, he attempts to provide some clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of ar…

I would submit that any attempt at "clear-cut criteria for an objective judgment of art, food, and literature" will be subject to the culture in which it is developed, and that when these criteria are transplanted into foreign cultures, they will or will not work to varying degrees.

You allude this this when you say "GRRM can't hold a candle to the profound impact Harper Lee has had on American culture as a whole". Obviously your own criteria includes how this work affected America. How objective can this be if it may be assessed entirely differently by a Chinese, Russian or African person, where it may have had little or no discernible influence on their culture?

Leaving that aside, the passages in comparison are actually saying different things. Regardless of who wrote them, 3minus1 should be free to prefer that slightly different definition of courage. The source is irrelevant.

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