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Bernie’s Army of Coders

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Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#61

Post by bmelton »

monocasa wrote: post #57
bmelton wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have first-hand experience dealing with Michael Chertoff. You may not know the name, but he's been a SCOTUS clerk, federal prosecutor, Assistant U.S. Attorney General, NSA Director, and Secretary of Homeland Security. He was also chairman of BAE systems, The Chertoff Group, and other defense-oriented businesses. BAE is D.C.'s 8th largest contractor. Chertoff was instrumental in mandating the FAA's adoption of body…

I guess I fail to see how allowing corporations to pay for large parts of politicians' campaigns achieves the goals you're implicitly stating here.

If you don't allow the government to make mandates, then there's very little purpose in lobbying them. People tend to believe that regulations are imposed to keep big businesses in check, but many if not most business regulations are lobbied for by the big businesses to impose hurdles to would-be competitors.

This isn't to suggest that all regulations are bad, mind you, but cui bono; wherever there exists a regulation, someone benefits from it. Sometimes it is legitimately the people who are customers / consumers of that business, but often it exists as the result of a mandated competitive advantage... and anecdotally speaking, the more expensive compliance is, the more likely that is to be the case.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#62

Post by toomuchtodo »

melted wrote: post #59

The exact same folks who Bernie is going to raise taxes for, mind you. He won't really be able to do anything against the 1% (since they own the Congress, and will continue to own it), but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor.

> but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor.

TIL first world social services are "nice free rides promised to the poor."

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#63

Post by rhino369 »

specialist wrote: post #32
bmelton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why ultimately I agree with the decision in Citizens United. If my bill rate is $200 an hour, then it's possible to put a financial amount on any activity I do in support of a candidate. If they did that, then we would just get the usual brinksmanship (assuming a cap), and I might be "too wealthy" to contribute time to the candidate I support. Contrarily, if I'm just as passionate about a candidate, and h…

The US Federal government regulates money. Given money == speech, you're okay with the government regulating speech?

But it's not money==speech. More like often times restricting money is restricting speech. That doesn't necessarily mean money is exactly speech.

Which is why the government still restricts campaign donations. It just can't restrict money when that money is being used for actual speech.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#64

Post by rhino369 »

weatherlight wrote: post #14
bmelton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why ultimately I agree with the decision in Citizens United. If my bill rate is $200 an hour, then it's possible to put a financial amount on any activity I do in support of a candidate. If they did that, then we would just get the usual brinksmanship (assuming a cap), and I might be "too wealthy" to contribute time to the candidate I support. Contrarily, if I'm just as passionate about a candidate, and h…

Corporations shouldn't be people though. This is a dangerous precedent.

The problem with this viewpoint is that historically, and especially today, free speech and press is conducted primarily through corporations.

Campaigning is done on corporate television. The print press is for profit corporations.

Can you imagine a free election without the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, Twitter, Reddit, etc.

Why can't Koch brothers buy advertisements trashing Hillary Clinton when Jeff Bezos can buy the Washington Post and then run a hit piece on Marco Rubio?

Getting private corporations out of the speech business is probably impossible because of the internet. You could probably devise a system to attempt it, but it would be radical.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#65

Post by melted »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #62
melted wrote: post #59

The exact same folks who Bernie is going to raise taxes for, mind you. He won't really be able to do anything against the 1% (since they own the Congress, and will continue to own it), but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor.

> but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor. TIL first world social services are "nice free rides promised to the poor."

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but first world social services (by which I suspect you mean universal healthcare) aren't going to happen either, Bernie or no Bernie. For that to happen one would have to dismantle the healthcare insurance industry (which Obama had to give hundreds of billions to, in order to pass ACA) and screw over the doctors who currently charge an arm and a leg because they can (ACA does little to nothing to control the costs, which is why they are still rising). That's a trillion dollar industry, the best you can hope for is very gradual evolution in the right direction. It's "hope, change" bullshit all over again, except Bernie is very likely to keel over in the next 9 years.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#66

Post by toomuchtodo »

melted wrote: post #65
toomuchtodo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor. TIL first world social services are "nice free rides promised to the poor."

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but first world social services (by which I suspect you mean universal healthcare) aren't going to happen either, Bernie or no Bernie. For that to happen one would have to dismantle the healthcare insurance industry (which Obama had to give hundreds of billions to, in order to pass ACA) and screw over the doctors who currently charge an arm and a leg because they can (ACA does litt…

You're free to your opinion! Progress occurs one funeral at a time (the US is slowly turning progressive as the 65+ cohort ages). Maybe it takes a year. Maybe it takes ten. People like myself just continue pushing in the direction we'd like to go.

Its unfortunate you're jaded into the idea that no change can occur.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#67

Post by rhino369 »

melted wrote: post #59

The exact same folks who Bernie is going to raise taxes for, mind you. He won't really be able to do anything against the 1% (since they own the Congress, and will continue to own it), but upper middle class represents an attractive target for a cash grab to pay for all those nice free rides he's promising to the poor.

The dirty open secret is very few countries actually tax the capital owning class all that much. It's just too easy to pack up and move to a country that doesn't.

The upper middle class and income rich pay the brunt. But there isn't enough to fix all of societies problems.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#68

Post by melted »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #66
melted wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but first world social services (by which I suspect you mean universal healthcare) aren't going to happen either, Bernie or no Bernie. For that to happen one would have to dismantle the healthcare insurance industry (which Obama had to give hundreds of billions to, in order to pass ACA) and screw over the doctors who currently charge an arm and a leg because they can (ACA does litt…

You're free to your opinion! Progress occurs one funeral at a time (the US is slowly turning progressive as the 65+ cohort ages). Maybe it takes a year. Maybe it takes ten. People like myself just continue pushing in the direction we'd like to go. Its unfortunate you're jaded into the idea that no change can occur.

Cohorts beyond 35 or so (also known as people who might actually have something to lose) are more conservative and they have always been. So your hope that conservatives will die out is naive at best. People turn conservative real quick once they have a bit of money in their brokerage and/or savings account.

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#69

Post by toomuchtodo »

melted wrote: post #68
toomuchtodo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to your opinion! Progress occurs one funeral at a time (the US is slowly turning progressive as the 65+ cohort ages). Maybe it takes a year. Maybe it takes ten. People like myself just continue pushing in the direction we'd like to go. Its unfortunate you're jaded into the idea that no change can occur.

Cohorts beyond 35 or so (also known as people who might actually have something to lose) are more conservative and they have always been. So your hope that conservatives will die out is naive at best. People turn conservative real quick once they have a bit of money in their brokerage and/or savings account.

Do you have a citation for that?

Re: Bernie’s Army of Coders

#70

Post by bmelton »

uxp wrote: post #58
gozur88 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rights do I have as part of a corporation that I don't have as an individual?

You do not have any rights as part of a corporation that you do not already have as an individual. That is the distinction. The corporation has rights, of which you can enact on behalf of the corporation, that you cannot enact on your own. Limits on campaign contributions is one such right. Because you carry in your wallet a card that declares you a member of a corporation, you are not granted any rights, personally.

I think you're radically mistaken on how corporate contributions work.

Near as I can find, corporations don't have carte blanche to give unlimited money to an individual campaign. In fact, corporations cannot give any money to an individual candidate's campaign.

Corporations can give money to Political Action Committees, but are limited by amount to the same as real people.

Corporations can give money to SuperPACs, but so can real people.

http://www.fec.gov/info/contriblimitschart1516.pdf

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/citizens.shtml

If I am wrong, I welcome corrections, but I think you're off on what corporations can and cannot do.

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