Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#61

Post by cvburgess » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

SquareWheel wrote: post #50

herge wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information...

>Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information... Google is the advertiser. I'm surprised how often people make this mistake. They don't sell user data to other advertisers. This not only goes against their terms of service, but also makes no business sense. Why would they give up their best signal for targeted ads?

They effectively sell user information by way of allowing their customers to target individuals for a price. They aren't directly selling the data itself but they are selling a service that is an extension of that data. I think the semantics are negligible. They make money selling [ads based on] user data.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#62

Post by AngrySkillzz » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

keehun wrote: post #25

zoul wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t the modern Android phones with Trusted Execution Environment do about the same?

I think what gtrubetskoy is talking about is Google (namely: search, Gmail, calendar, contacts, Plus--which are all tied to your Google account) and Facebook (namely: relationships, posting content, private messages, what you look at, etc) is information which is then mined or allowed to be targeted by advertisers for a handsome profit. Apple doesn't do that. Their iAds are nothing in comparison to Google/FB's data m…

Google has a lot to lose in this debate though. If government encroachment on security/privacy online becomes enough to worry people, they'll be less willing to share data. Less data means less effective advertising and lower rates, killing Google's business model.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#63

Post by return0 » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #37

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #3

What sets Apple apart from Googles and Facebooks is that it's the only company that stores the data in way that Apple itself cannot read it. This is why the others have little to say on the subject - there is no issue of a "backdoor", because there is no wall to begin with when it comes to Google or FB, their business model depends on reading and analyzing your emails and posts.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

Isnt it possible that apple wants to indirectly harm google, by raising the issue for returning information to users? Believing that corporations can be "good" or "evil" is real bad advice at best, cheap marketing speak at worse. I think tech people should be immune to such messaging.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#64

Post by mordocai » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:23 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #37

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #3

What sets Apple apart from Googles and Facebooks is that it's the only company that stores the data in way that Apple itself cannot read it. This is why the others have little to say on the subject - there is no issue of a "backdoor", because there is no wall to begin with when it comes to Google or FB, their business model depends on reading and analyzing your emails and posts.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

They may be "do no evil" on privacy, but apple heavily pushes vendor lock in and basically does everything they can to keep you from being able to easily switch to a different vendor.

Google seems easier to switch from, they seem less concerned with vendor lock in (don't get me wrong though, they still have some vendor lock in. Just less than apple IMO).

I think in this case it is "choose your evil" and for a lot of people, for good reason, privacy is going to win.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#65

Post by mojuba » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #63

ignoramous wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

Isnt it possible that apple wants to indirectly harm google, by raising the issue for returning information to users? Believing that corporations can be "good" or "evil" is real bad advice at best, cheap marketing speak at worse. I think tech people should be immune to such messaging.

Apple has its own share of evil of course (user lock-in etc.), but for one thing, when their CEO says "we won't hand your data" he knows that some day there will be another Snowden and he, the CEO of Apple, better make sure what he says today is actually true.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#66

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

cvburgess wrote: post #61

SquareWheel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information... Google is the advertiser. I'm surprised how often people make this mistake. They don't sell user data to other advertisers. This not only goes against their terms of service, but also makes no business sense. Why would they give up their best signal for targeted ads?

They effectively sell user information by way of allowing their customers to target individuals for a price. They aren't directly selling the data itself but they are selling a service that is an extension of that data. I think the semantics are negligible. They make money selling [ads based on] user data.

> They effectively sell user information by way of allowing their customers to target individuals for a price.

That's not selling user information in the same way that Ford doesn't sell automobile factories.

> They aren't directly selling the data itself

Nor are they indirectly selling the data. No one else gets the data.

> they are selling a service that is an extension of that data.

They are using the data to produce a service that they are selling, in the same way that Ford uses a factory to make a car. No one else gets the data, in the same way that no one else gets the factory from Ford.

> I think the semantics are negligible.

I think there is a substantive difference between transferring data to third parties and over whom neither the person the data describes nor Google exercises control and retaining the data internally and using it to provide a service to third parties. And I think that is a critical difference when it comes to privacy.

I mean, you erase the distinction between a armed security guard (who sells a service which involves a firearm) and an arms dealer (who sells firearms).

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#67

Post by karlshea » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #63

ignoramous wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just made me realise that Apple is a true "do no evil" company and not Google, for all its technology powress and fancy marketing. A sad realisation as I have been using Google products for almost everything-- they pitch up everything under the F/OSS banner and it's so tempting. I think I should consider moving to iOS pretty seriously. I had been dismissing it for being over-priced and not being OSS. But the tru…

Isnt it possible that apple wants to indirectly harm google, by raising the issue for returning information to users? Believing that corporations can be "good" or "evil" is real bad advice at best, cheap marketing speak at worse. I think tech people should be immune to such messaging.

I honestly don't think Apple gave one second's thought about Google when they decided to take a stand on this issue.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#68

Post by Lawtonfogle » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #34

vbezhenar wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound as a freedom of speech but more as oppressive government. Something wrong if people don't want to express their opinions because of fear.

> Something wrong if people don't want to express their opinions because of fear. Not people—companies.

The same tactics apply to people... have been applied to people...

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#69

Post by AngrySkillzz » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

Of course the industry response is muted; this is the chilling effect that we were all worried about. Most Big Co's don't want to put themselves in opposition to an organization as powerful and well-funded as the US intelligence apparatus. I'm sure they are all on Apple's side, but are less willing to speak out about it because they fear the consequences.

If you're cynical, you might think that this case is all about setting precedent and trying to scare one of the FBI's biggest opponents on the topic of data security (Cook). We know they have other options for cracking the phone in question (decapping, side channels, etc.). They want legal precedent for installing backdoors, and they want to scare Apple and other companies out of providing security features. No wonder those companies are hesitant to speak up.

Re: Apple Letter on iPhone Security Draws Muted Tech Industry Response

#70

Post by guyzero » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

cvburgess wrote: post #61

SquareWheel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple also makes most of it's money by selling phones, not user information... Google is the advertiser. I'm surprised how often people make this mistake. They don't sell user data to other advertisers. This not only goes against their terms of service, but also makes no business sense. Why would they give up their best signal for targeted ads?

They effectively sell user information by way of allowing their customers to target individuals for a price. They aren't directly selling the data itself but they are selling a service that is an extension of that data. I think the semantics are negligible. They make money selling [ads based on] user data.

The difference is not semantic. It's an immense difference. One is an ad inserted into your Visa statement, the other is Visa selling your personal data to third parties. Completely different.