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Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

bugs.debian.org

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Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#111

Post by vacri »

moron4hire wrote: post #16

I don't understand why Debian has anything to do with Firefox. Why does the operating system have any say on what applications get released and how often? Isn't this the whole point of using free, open source software? To be able to choose your own components? Why do we need Debian bundling Firefox?

> Why does the operating system have any say on what applications get released and how often?

Because it's a curated experience. But debian (or any distro) don't force you to use their versions. You're quite able to install your own on your free, open source software. Find your own repositories, set up your own repositories, manually install downloaded packages, configure/make/make-install your own software... debian not only doesn't stop you from doing this, but is built around letting you do this (as are all major distros).

You're not forced to use a repository at all.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#112

Post by vacri »

jimmaswell wrote: post #52
Peaker wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After using apt-get for everything, going back to manually finding an (untrusted) executable, running it, hitting a bunch of next buttons -- seems insane. It is quite bad. External dependencies are also nearly impractical this way, so all installers tend to embed their universe of dependencies, making for an even worse experience.

After simply using installers in Windows, dealing with conflicting package and library dependencies seems insane. I've been unable to use multiple applications on linux because of this issue whereas that would never happen on Windows where installers just have what they need without getting in each other's business.

So, I had to clean some viruses off a Windows 7 machine for a friend recently. I had to grab about six different bits of anti-malware software to do so. Some of that software came from famous vendors' sites where the downloaded software wasn't even protected by https. No real way to externally validate the item I was about to install on a system which is already known to be compromised.

Some of the installers tried to install bundled crapware - which is frequent in the Windows world, and you have to watch out for it with every installer.

I hadn't done any real work on Windows for so long that I'd forgotten the whole "is this even safe to download?" problem that Windows has with it's applications.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#113

Post by txutxu »

protomyth wrote: post #100
txutxu wrote: post #88

People, This is great news for few of us. But it has been hard to read trough this comments and realize how much ignorance about what Debian is, how it works, what the Debian bug tracker is, what a voluntary-based project is, and to read some assertions and prepotency around in HN If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Debian is not a startup. Debian is…

> If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution? > Feel free to downvote without reasoning why. I didn't bother, but "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution?

Well, as an user of a openly licensed system, you are free to use the source. As well as, you're free to don't use it :)

But regarding voluntary work, it's useless and ugly to harm and bash it, without helping the cause.

Didn't know that guidelines, thanks, and sorry.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#114

Post by txutxu »

daeken wrote: post #96
txutxu wrote: post #88

People, This is great news for few of us. But it has been hard to read trough this comments and realize how much ignorance about what Debian is, how it works, what the Debian bug tracker is, what a voluntary-based project is, and to read some assertions and prepotency around in HN If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Debian is not a startup. Debian is…

> If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Are you really saying that the only way to contribute to Debian's success is to directly fix problems yourself? Community feedback (in the form of bug reports, comments on forums, mailing list discussion participation, etc) is hugely important in most every open source project; dismissing that is foolish at best a…

well, I suppose my point there was:

"Talk about the problem, where you can fix it, not just a comment in a third party forum".

I was after a telephone discussion and maybe I was a little bit harsh.

It's not that bug reports are not useful, it's that if you follow the debian manual, you don't need the web interface for reporting bugs...

People working on web technologies, use to blame opensource projects a lot, without any help.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#115

Post by yebyen »

cbd1984 wrote: post #107
protomyth wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution? > Feel free to downvote without reasoning why. I didn't bother, but "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution? This might not be a bad characterization of where it sits now. If you want a hand-holding "user-friendly" (and I use the term advisedly, based on the common, flawed conception of what a "user" is), create one based on Debian, leveraging the Debian tools and packages and processes to make an Ubuntu or Mint or something else. Debian isn't a meta-distribution. It is a d…

For a plug of my friend Thanatermesis' great Debian-based distribution, which recognizes the distro and free-software ethos is not always fully conducive to a positive user experience at the forefront...

http://www.elivecd.org/ - The latest release is always based on Debian Stable and is currently under active development. The whole system is changed in (mostly subtle) ways to make it more attractive to a new Linux user. This is Debian, with some additions. I push this to any friends who say they are interested in Linux, but maybe just want to try it first.

I would not recommend Ubuntu to a new user (unless they were my employee, we use it at work) or Mint for that matter. I would not recommend Debian in spite of using it myself at home, because I don't always want to be the Debian support guy, or have to be the one to say RTFM. Elive tries to be as self-explanatory as possible, even in its somewhat Tarzanic way.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#116

Post by voltagex_ »

txutxu wrote: post #88

People, This is great news for few of us. But it has been hard to read trough this comments and realize how much ignorance about what Debian is, how it works, what the Debian bug tracker is, what a voluntary-based project is, and to read some assertions and prepotency around in HN If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Debian is not a startup. Debian is…

The problem with "you can go fix it if you want" is that the barrier to "fixing it" is very high, even with such great things as #debian-mentors.

I fully understand the need for all the process and policy but it can be very difficult to get things fixed in Debian without talking to the right people or attending the right conferences.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#117

Post by kbenson »

geofft wrote: post #102
kbenson wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is meant to imply they don't have to offer the source in some form or just a clarification of my prior comment, but I think it's pretty clear from GPL 3.0 section 6[1] that it is required, and the most recompense you can get from this is "for a price no more than your reasonable cost of physically performing this conveying of source", as if it's network accessible it must be free. So, at least pa…

Well, you can charge for the software as a whole, which I read your comment to claim you can't. I can absolutely say, hey, here's AwesomeDebianFork 1.0 with some custom patches on GPL code, you can get a CD set of binaries + source for $99. I don't have to resort to circumlocutions about service, and I don't have to make the source available to anyone else. ( You are free to copy that source CD, though.) The only thi…

> Well, you can charge for the software as a whole, which I read your comment to claim you can't.

Ah, yeah, that was an aspect of my original comment I wasn't thinking of, but was implying, and I had glossed over that in your reply. Thanks for correcting me and clarifying. :)

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#118

Post by voltagex_ »

shmerl wrote: post #3

Related: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=555935 Also, Debian is really lacking some more modern bug management / issue tracking system. It might be useful to provide e-mail interface for it, but I fail to see why it also can't be managed from some site at the same time instead of limiting it to read only view.

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/iceweasel is getting there. The bug tracker has lots of integration with other Debian systems. I'd say it'd be a huge project to upgrade/replace.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#119

Post by astrodust »

jhasse wrote: post #109
astrodust wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones I've used in the past relentlessly spam you about every little thing for every issue or tell you nothing about anything. There's very little in the way of fine-grained control. I understand some people prefer email for following up on these things, but destroying my inbox by following a busy project is not something I'll ever do. GitHub's default is to notify project owners, issues you've participated in or…

I see. I have used trac and bugzilla and both work similar to GitHub (you only subscribe to issues you participate in)

If that's the case, I bet the projects I've had the displeasure of working with were using wildly out of date versions of those tools.

Re: Renaming Iceweasel to Firefox

#120

Post by ableal »

mwcampbell wrote: post #104
protomyth wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you see ANYTHING wrong with Debian, go fix it, or shut up and go to sell your stuff to another one. Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution? > Feel free to downvote without reasoning why. I didn't bother, but "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downvote you or announce that you expect to get downvoted." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Ok, so Debian is a developers-only distribution? For all practical purposes, I'd say yes. GNU/Linux as a PC operating system for non-programmers is a lost cause. Sure, some organizations make it work, but it probably requires a lot of technical support; they'd probably be better off using Android tablets and/or Chromebooks if they need something less expensive than a Windows PC, let alone a Mac. And when non-progra…

> GNU/Linux as a PC operating system for non-programmers is a lost cause.

Engineering workstations. Lots of them.

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