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A Message to Our Customers

apple.com

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Re: A Message to Our Customers

#701
post #2

Huge props to Apple - here's hoping against hope that Google, Facebook, and Amazon get behind this. One thing I was wondering is how Apple is even able to create a backdoor. It is explained toward the end: "The government would have us remove security features and add new capabilities to the operating system, allowing a passcode to be input electronically. This would make it easier to unlock an iPhone by “brute force…

> Huge props to Apple

They may be doing it for people right to privacy, but don't forget they might also be doing this because their image would become tainted irrevocably if they complied with this. Trust in Apple devices would be shattered (across those who currently trust Apple).

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To be fair - the only reason he's doing it is because it would cause a significant drop in sales for Apple devices." That's not being fair at all. To say the only reason he is doing it is to protect iPhone sales doesn't speak to Tim's character. Of course he cares about sales, but he also cares about privacy.

Tim answers to shareholders. Shareholders look at the bottom line and not his character.

This is a good way to think about things skeptically, but to say it as though it is fact is misleading. Is it that unlikely that a business professional can frame his beliefs and knowledge in this domain in such a way to justify himself to the shareholders? Or are we all just too skeptical that people in power act against morality whenever easy or possible?

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#703
post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not really true. The secure enclave is a separate computer. It doesn't get software updates. > possibly with the addition of a judicially compelled fingerprint scan or PIN brute force to get the encryption key out of whatever on-device escrow it's stored in This is the whole problem. The keys are in the SE. You can't brute force the PIN because the SE rate-limits attempts (and that rate limiting cannot be ove…

Is that really true? The enclave's firmware is in ROM and non-upgradeable? I'd always assumed it got a signed blob like everything else does. Obviously it's possible to design a system like that, I just haven't seen it reported anywhere that it actually works like that. Edit just to be clear: the requirement really is that the firmware be stored in a ROM somewhere, probably on the SoC. That's a lot of die space (code…

According to a former apple engineer that worked on this stuff, the enclave's firmware is indeed a signed blob:

https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520

The key thing would be for it to lose all stored keys on update when the current passphase has not been provided, and it sounds like that may not currently be the case.

Maybe in this case, Apple could comply, but a simple tweak would make it impossible in the future?

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Computationally-signed bootloader" - but does Apple have the private key? If so, why can't they create another bootloader?

As I understand it, if the code running in the "secure enclave" (containing the private keys) is ever upgraded, the hardware side intentionally deletes the private keys as part of the upgrade, whether the upgraded code would want it to or not.

Dan Guido just tweeted otherwise: https://twitter.com/dguido/status/699992079594864640

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#706
post #2

Huge props to Apple - here's hoping against hope that Google, Facebook, and Amazon get behind this. One thing I was wondering is how Apple is even able to create a backdoor. It is explained toward the end: "The government would have us remove security features and add new capabilities to the operating system, allowing a passcode to be input electronically. This would make it easier to unlock an iPhone by “brute force…

What puzzles me is why the government didn't impose a gag order like they sometimes do in cases like this.

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) They're not saying they don't want to help investigate the SB shooters, only that the order illegally expands the use of the All Writs Act and sets a bad precedent for democracy. 2) If they beat the order then the FBI needs to find a new way to compel Apple to help them do shit. That likely means the FBI needs federal legislation passed, which in the current climate will buy Apple considerable time. This is why th…

But this all hinges on the naive assumptions that this is a one off and will never happen again, and that later generation devices are immune from any circumvention attempt. History says this isn't how this plays out. If you crack the encryption once you'll get orders to crack it again and again, and in much lower profile and lower stake cases. Look at the prevalence of espionage tactics such as Stingrays and "parall…

Both Paris and SB were great examples of the terrorists basically not bothering with using encryption, if they had actually used and benefited from encryption we'd be discussing how to get cryptography re-legalized.

I doubt there's even anything on the phone the FBI don't have from other sources. The reason they're using the All Writs Act with this case is because of the publicity of the case so they can point to Apple prioritizing some vague principle most people don't care about over real dead people. Apple's doing a good job making their argument to those who care about said vague principle, but not to the general public.

I think you're underestimating how badly we're going to be taken to the woodshed on this the first time it's opportune. My be it it'll be some cute little girl dies in a Nancy Grace friendly way and the FBI manages to convince the public that "if only we could have broken these messages" etc. It might even be true in that one freak instance, but then we'll have "[cute_little_girl.name]'s Law" which will make sure that such a tragedy never gets exploi.... reported again, by making sure that the government can read messages when they need to. The US market is too large not to capitulate at that point. That bill passes if the voting public can be stirred up against the greedy and aloof tech sector. It doesn't pass if they see the tech sector and its goals as reasonable, and while we should continue trying to educate people on why encryption is good and important for them, you don't change the number of minds we need to change with rational arguments (or again, we'd have won already).

Edit: very interesting link on the mouse jiggler though, thanks for that!

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#708

I'd love to know the names of the people within the FBI who are pushing this agenda. The only way this foolishness is going to stop is if those people are out of a job.

I'm sure this backdoor request is fully supported by Obama as well as Hillary.

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#709
post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really true? The enclave's firmware is in ROM and non-upgradeable? I'd always assumed it got a signed blob like everything else does. Obviously it's possible to design a system like that, I just haven't seen it reported anywhere that it actually works like that. Edit just to be clear: the requirement really is that the firmware be stored in a ROM somewhere, probably on the SoC. That's a lot of die space (code…

According to a former apple engineer that worked on this stuff, the enclave's firmware is indeed a signed blob: https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520 The key thing would be for it to lose all stored keys on update when the current passphase has not been provided, and it sounds like that may not currently be the case. Maybe in this case, Apple could comply, but a simple tweak would make it impossible…

But "on update" isn't really the issue. If the code can be swapped underneath it, how does it know an "update" took place? Again you're in the situation where all of that process would have to be managed by hardware, when what is really happening is that the enclave is a computer running signed software that can be replaced.

Re: A Message to Our Customers

#710

As others have noted, this is probably mostly about branding. But that's why it is genius. Tim Cook is committing Apple to this pro-privacy position in a very public way. This means that a reversal of this position or a revelation that Apple has been acting contra it, would be extremely expensive to Apple's reputation with its customers, effectively costing the company a huge amount of money. By publicly committing A…

You're exactly right about the effects on the company as a whole. A CEO is like a cheerleader and ship's captain for a company.

Nilay Patel over at The Verge said on one of their podcasts he once asked Satya Nadella what it was like to be the CEO of a company as large as Microsoft. Nadella told him being CEO meant telling a big-picture vision to the press and the company over and over again until everyone started going in that direction.

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