FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board • Hacker News Board

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#11

Post by Nwallins » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 3:37 AM UTC

tsally wrote: post #6

vyrotek wrote: post #2

How about the idea that there shouldn't be any public schools?

Education is guaranteed under article 26 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed and helped author. Not providing a public option for education would mean redefining what we believe to be fundamental freedoms. How are you going to provide education to the poor without public schools? Will the government give the poor money for education? Will you subsidize the "private" schools with governme…

> Public schools and the belief that education is a fundamental human right are inextricably intertwined.

This is not the rational conclusion. It is possible to provide for an education without providing the education.

> Will you subsidize the "private" schools with government money?

No. Funds come from tuition-paying students.

> How are you going to provide education to the poor without public schools? Will the government give the poor money for education?

Perhaps.

> How are you going to provide education to the poor without public schools?

Fund the poor with education credits that can be spent freely on education. The school is reimbursed by the Fed for its education credits.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#12

Post by wisty » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 3:49 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #9

tsally wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is guaranteed under article 26 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed and helped author. Not providing a public option for education would mean redefining what we believe to be fundamental freedoms. How are you going to provide education to the poor without public schools? Will the government give the poor money for education? Will you subsidize the "private" schools with governme…

"Will you subsidize the "private" schools with government money? That would defeat the whole purpose of having private schools as you aren't allowing them the operate in the free market." I don't understand this. The most common proposal I've heard is a voucher system that would allow people to defray the cost of an education at a school that has some sort of certification. In what meaningful ways is that not a free…

Maybe. Public education is a good way to mix student though, otherwise you have segregation. Ghetto schools are bad, because the bad students get worse, and the good students don't learn any street smarts.

Cutting school time, then supplementing it with tutoring vouchers would be my preference. You get a bit of both worlds. It would be tricky for teachers, who would need 2 jobs (one of which they would actually be accountable in) but that could be partly positive. Exposing teachers to a bit of business might be good.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#13

Post by wisty » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 3:57 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #7

sshumaker wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the theory behind that?

Universal access to education doesn't mean that the government needs to actually run the schools. It just means that funding needs to be provided for those who can't afford it on their own. Bonus points if you can get people to voluntarily subsidize the educations of those who can't afford it rather than forcibly taking the money. Competition is a pretty powerful force when it comes to improving products, and it seem…

Calling education a product is tricky. Do you mean degrees or other attainments, or do you mean the underlying learning? Because it's damn hard to separate the two, and private providers have a big incentive to half-ass the second, especially if they are targeting the mass market.

Education is even harder than health to privatize, because you are trying to target kids, not parents, but the parents will be making all the choices.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#14

Post by natrius » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:03 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #12

natrius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Will you subsidize the "private" schools with government money? That would defeat the whole purpose of having private schools as you aren't allowing them the operate in the free market." I don't understand this. The most common proposal I've heard is a voucher system that would allow people to defray the cost of an education at a school that has some sort of certification. In what meaningful ways is that not a free…

Maybe. Public education is a good way to mix student though, otherwise you have segregation. Ghetto schools are bad, because the bad students get worse, and the good students don't learn any street smarts. Cutting school time, then supplementing it with tutoring vouchers would be my preference. You get a bit of both worlds. It would be tricky for teachers, who would need 2 jobs (one of which they would actually be ac…

Segregation is alive and well. Public schools don't solve that at all. Human beings naturally stratify by class. Regardless, improving education is a greater good than increasing diversity. If there is actually a trade-off between the two, it's an easy choice.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#15

Post by threepointone » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:05 AM UTC

TheThomas wrote: post #10

jf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, it's just hard to find. http://www2.ed.gov/about/open-submit-idea.html via http://ed.gov/open

Thanks. Great catch. Admittedly, I'm still disappointed though. If they were taking it seriously, I'd expect something bright and shiny on that front page of theirs.

or rephrased : idea no.1 - redesign ed.gov and associated programs.

:)

I'm not trolling; this is an actual idea. I'll construct a better, longer version of this and post it soon on the site. A better portal could make ed.gov a fantastic place for all to visit.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#16

Post by natrius » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:06 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #13

natrius wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal access to education doesn't mean that the government needs to actually run the schools. It just means that funding needs to be provided for those who can't afford it on their own. Bonus points if you can get people to voluntarily subsidize the educations of those who can't afford it rather than forcibly taking the money. Competition is a pretty powerful force when it comes to improving products, and it seem…

Calling education a product is tricky. Do you mean degrees or other attainments, or do you mean the underlying learning? Because it's damn hard to separate the two, and private providers have a big incentive to half-ass the second, especially if they are targeting the mass market. Education is even harder than health to privatize, because you are trying to target kids, not parents, but the parents will be making all…

Public providers half-ass the underlying learning as well. The concept of "teaching to the test" didn't come from private schools. Whatever we choose to measure schools by will generally be what teachers and principals optimize for, whether public or private.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#17

Post by natrius » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:18 AM UTC

tsally wrote: post #6

vyrotek wrote: post #2

How about the idea that there shouldn't be any public schools?

Education is guaranteed under article 26 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed and helped author. Not providing a public option for education would mean redefining what we believe to be fundamental freedoms. How are you going to provide education to the poor without public schools? Will the government give the poor money for education? Will you subsidize the "private" schools with governme…

In reply to your edit: Your entire argument rests on the assumption that private schools that poor students attend will be worse than public schools that poor students attend. You haven't presented any evidence for that, and it is contrary to what a naive analysis would suggest.

Today, poor students have absolutely no choice when it comes to schools. They live where they can afford, and they go to the schools they are zoned to. In a voucher system, poor students would actually get to pick schools, and one would assume that they'd tend to pick better schools after taking distance and other requirements into account.

Bad public schools continue in perpetuity because students are forced to pay for them. In an ideal world, bad private schools wither away when students choose better schools.

"In the public system there is a constant struggle to push the low end higher. This is (part of the reason) why the public system costs so much."

If that's the case, there's no reason that students who require extra attention can't be provided extra funding via vouchers.

"If the vouchers were high enough to raise the low end to an acceptable level, the cost would be equal to the public part of the current system."

If that's the case, who cares? Getting to choose the school your children attend is a good in itself, so you're suggesting that vouchers would be an improvement even with your incorrect assumption that current public school costs are necessary to achieve current public school quality.

You refer to a market failure several times, but you've never described it. How would the market fail to provide at least equal quality with equal funding per student?

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#18

Post by jwhite » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:24 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #7

sshumaker wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the theory behind that?

Universal access to education doesn't mean that the government needs to actually run the schools. It just means that funding needs to be provided for those who can't afford it on their own. Bonus points if you can get people to voluntarily subsidize the educations of those who can't afford it rather than forcibly taking the money. Competition is a pretty powerful force when it comes to improving products, and it seem…

I think you would have to set the parameters very carefully.

In Australia, universities have been encouraged (or forced, depending on how you look at it) by budget cuts to offer courses to full fee paying students from overseas to supplement their revenue. This contrasts with the local Australian students whose courses are still highly subsidised by government funding (the subsidy has been decreasing as well though).

If a university is offering a course with an aim to maximize revenue, then it will naturally want to attract as many students as possible, in competition with other local universities and with overseas universities. Often that means lowering the entrance criteria for prospective students. Because the students are paying for the course, they expect to have their degree at the end of it, and this leads to significant pressure to lower the depth and difficulty of the material taught, as well as the grading criteria, to accommodate the weakest students.

I don't believe the actual teaching is poor, but the quality of education is lowered. I know professors who have had to take phone calls from overseas from parents demanding to have their children's grades altered, with a financial threat attached. Reputation is a key driver in students' choice of university, which adds a further incentive to placate the customer. I don't know if any of these anecdotes actually resulted in a "pay-for-grade" situation, but the normally assumed academic independence is certainly threatened.

Maybe education can be made to work well under a competitive market system, but in this situation I don't think it has, and I'm not smart enough to think of ways to fix this particular situation.

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#19

Post by mhb » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:41 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #13

natrius wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal access to education doesn't mean that the government needs to actually run the schools. It just means that funding needs to be provided for those who can't afford it on their own. Bonus points if you can get people to voluntarily subsidize the educations of those who can't afford it rather than forcibly taking the money. Competition is a pretty powerful force when it comes to improving products, and it seem…

Calling education a product is tricky. Do you mean degrees or other attainments, or do you mean the underlying learning? Because it's damn hard to separate the two, and private providers have a big incentive to half-ass the second, especially if they are targeting the mass market. Education is even harder than health to privatize, because you are trying to target kids, not parents, but the parents will be making all…

What argument are you making that doesn't apply if you replace education, schools and vouchers with food, supermarkets and food stamps?

Re: FIXME: zero ideas in the dept. of education's open government idea board

#20

Post by jcnnghm » Tue, Feb 09, 2010, 4:44 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #13

natrius wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal access to education doesn't mean that the government needs to actually run the schools. It just means that funding needs to be provided for those who can't afford it on their own. Bonus points if you can get people to voluntarily subsidize the educations of those who can't afford it rather than forcibly taking the money. Competition is a pretty powerful force when it comes to improving products, and it seem…

Calling education a product is tricky. Do you mean degrees or other attainments, or do you mean the underlying learning? Because it's damn hard to separate the two, and private providers have a big incentive to half-ass the second, especially if they are targeting the mass market. Education is even harder than health to privatize, because you are trying to target kids, not parents, but the parents will be making all…

If private providers half-ass the underlying learning, why do private schools consistently outperform public schools?