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Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

theguardian.com

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Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#41

Post by gozur88 »

droro wrote: post #10

Artificially-lit indoor farming is neato and will be a great technology to bring into space, but makes almost no sense on earth. Basically, it requires expensive infrastructure and way too much electricity ( https://gigaom.com/2015/12/29/indoor-farming-good-for-cannab... ). Maybe robotically-farmed greenhouses won't have this problem.

But you can't grow multiple levels of crops using sunlight. it might make sense if land is at a premium. A few months back there was an article proposing large farms in downtown Tokyo because you could produce fresh food right where the people are.

Also, I'm wondering if they intend to produce crops more quickly by shortening the day to 23 hours or something like that.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#42

Post by work-on-828 »

droro wrote: post #10

Artificially-lit indoor farming is neato and will be a great technology to bring into space, but makes almost no sense on earth. Basically, it requires expensive infrastructure and way too much electricity ( https://gigaom.com/2015/12/29/indoor-farming-good-for-cannab... ). Maybe robotically-farmed greenhouses won't have this problem.

I would expect this to be economically viable in Iceland, with their short growing season and cheap geothermal power.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#43

Post by IanCal »

orthecreedence wrote: post #36
ValleyOfTheMtns wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Oddly enough, and this is completely anecdotal, I've had much better luck growing outdoor plants than indoor plants. If an indoor plant gets some kind of pest (spider mites, aphids, etc) then you pretty much have to sit around spraying it and its peers with oils or alcohol day after day until you're confident the infestation is gone. With outdoor plants, there are so many natural predators to pests that things tend t…

Predators are used in large greenhouses: http://www.thanetearth.com/faqs-pesticides.html

> With outdoor plants, there are so many natural predators to pests that things tend to form a balance.

Although you're not looking for balance, you're looking for a huge abundance of a single crop.

> In addition to that, yes, there is the world's most abundant (and inexhaustible) energy source just sitting there waiting to be used.

That energy source doesn't work quite so well if you start stacking things vertically and isn't necessarily reliable. Reducing inefficiencies in growth may be more beneficial than saving some power.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#44

Post by unclebucknasty »

bendykstra wrote: post #32
sithadmin wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows - in a good way - in the quality of the produce, though.

There is a surprising phenomenon in microeconomics called the Alchian–Allen effect[1]. Quoting from Wikipedia, "[W]hen the prices of two substitute goods, such as high and low grades of the same product, are both increased by a fixed per-unit amount such as a transportation cost or a lump-sum tax, consumption will shift toward the higher-grade product. This is true because the added per-unit amount decreases the rela…

>There is a surprising phenomenon in microeconomics

I was waiting for some counter-intuitive twist, but that seems like common sense and basic math.

Not really sure how the concept earned a name.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#45

Post by Joof »

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #20
droro wrote: post #10

Artificially-lit indoor farming is neato and will be a great technology to bring into space, but makes almost no sense on earth. Basically, it requires expensive infrastructure and way too much electricity ( https://gigaom.com/2015/12/29/indoor-farming-good-for-cannab... ). Maybe robotically-farmed greenhouses won't have this problem.

If the electricity for the grow lights is produced locally via solar power, it is actually more efficient than using sunlight directly (provided LED grow lights are used). This is because the grow lights provide only the narrow bands of wavelengths that plants absorb most efficiently. Only about 45% of visible sunlight is usable by plants, compared to around 95% for photovoltaics, which more than makes up for convers…

Nobody seems to be pointing out that it is unlikely to be cost efficient as well (sun is free), which is what matters.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#46

Post by lovemenot »

orthecreedence wrote: post #36
ValleyOfTheMtns wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the decision to use grow lights indoors instead of sunlight This is the part of indoor automated farming I don't get. You have this free, abundant source of energy needed to grow plants, and you don't use it... why? Seems like a massive inefficiency. Indoors is fine to protect the crops and control the environment, but why not above ground with a clear roof to let sunlight in?

Oddly enough, and this is completely anecdotal, I've had much better luck growing outdoor plants than indoor plants. If an indoor plant gets some kind of pest (spider mites, aphids, etc) then you pretty much have to sit around spraying it and its peers with oils or alcohol day after day until you're confident the infestation is gone. With outdoor plants, there are so many natural predators to pests that things tend t…

Fujitsu runs a similar farm. For them, one of the advantages was that because they were growing in a disused clean room, formerly a fab, they could control air quality such that bacteria were negligible. This led to produce which could sit on shelves much longer without spoiling. Fujitsu charged a premium since retailers typically lose a portion of their lettuce value to spoilage or discounting.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/22/fujitsu_grows_lettuc...

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#47

Post by bobbles »

ValleyOfTheMtns wrote: post #40
Tsagadai wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical space is often a constraint. Green houses which cover large areas which are needed in areas where it gets cold in winter and you want certain types of food. The other is that the quantity of sunlight varies throughout the year in everywhere that isn't on the equator. Grow lights allow you to go from seed to harvest faster. Consider that the earth is not infinitely large and there is already a substantial por…

>The other is that the quantity of sunlight varies throughout the year in everywhere that isn't on the equator. Grow lights allow you to go from seed to harvest faster Why not have both? Grow lights when the sun isn't optimal, and the sun when it is. Wouldn't it be a huge cost saving measure to use free light instead of burning energy on grow lights when you don't need it?

If you want to grow vertically, you need to be able to control light as your own farm will be blocking the sun from half or more of the crops

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#48

Post by Swizec »

ValleyOfTheMtns wrote: post #40
Tsagadai wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical space is often a constraint. Green houses which cover large areas which are needed in areas where it gets cold in winter and you want certain types of food. The other is that the quantity of sunlight varies throughout the year in everywhere that isn't on the equator. Grow lights allow you to go from seed to harvest faster. Consider that the earth is not infinitely large and there is already a substantial por…

>The other is that the quantity of sunlight varies throughout the year in everywhere that isn't on the equator. Grow lights allow you to go from seed to harvest faster Why not have both? Grow lights when the sun isn't optimal, and the sun when it is. Wouldn't it be a huge cost saving measure to use free light instead of burning energy on grow lights when you don't need it?

I'm sure they ran the calculations and decided that electricity is cheaper than sunlight.

An immediate guess would be that with artificial lighting you can stack fields one on top of another. Something you cannot do with sunlight.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#49

Post by ekianjo »

icanhackit wrote: post #27
sithadmin wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows - in a good way - in the quality of the produce, though.

Agreed. The price is high but the quality is unparalleled in terms of taste, texture and appearance. Humans can be excellent quality assurance machines, they're just very high maintenance.

You must be kidding me. Fruits for example may look perfect in Japan but I will take any ugly looking fruit from France over them anytime. Most of the time they cant compete thats why they have heavy tariffs on imports.

Re: Japanese firm to open world’s first robot-run farm

#50

Post by jtolmar »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #44
bendykstra wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a surprising phenomenon in microeconomics called the Alchian–Allen effect[1]. Quoting from Wikipedia, "[W]hen the prices of two substitute goods, such as high and low grades of the same product, are both increased by a fixed per-unit amount such as a transportation cost or a lump-sum tax, consumption will shift toward the higher-grade product. This is true because the added per-unit amount decreases the rela…

> There is a surprising phenomenon in microeconomics I was waiting for some counter-intuitive twist, but that seems like common sense and basic math. Not really sure how the concept earned a name.

Paying $1 extra for a better apple is worth it if you value the better flavor by at least that much. It shouldn't matter whether the choice is between $4 and $5 or between $10 and $11 - how did that dollar become less valuable, or the apple tastier?

"Humans act like money is proportionate when it's actually linear," is the crux of a wide variety of "surprising" microeconomic facts. People are more likely to drive across town to save money on a fancy pen that could cost $4 or $8 than they are to drive across town to save money on a suit that could cost $320 or $324.

(Yes, there are cases where there are good arguments that the utility of money isn't linear, but these are not those cases.)

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