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Too many people have peed in the pool

stephenfry.com

541–550 of 555 posts

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#541
post #294
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an anarchs-capitalist I'd be happy to have a society where anarchs-communists had their communes and lived under their own rules. This may seem off topic but its directly relevant- we regularly have these debates in the anarchist community. But at the end of the day, it seems the anarchs-communists don't want to live under their own rules for themselves, they want us to live under their rules too. (Yes, the irony…

"But at the end of the day, it seems the anarchs-communists don't want to live under their own rules for themselves, they want us to live under their rules too." Because generally, you guys insist on living in the community and getting all the benefits of doing so, without following that community's rules. Basically, you're saying that those people do not have the right to govern themselves, because when you live in…

Firearms actually allow humans to defend their right to life. The reason is that they are the ultimate equalizer. A gun allows the 4'11", 89-pound, 79-year-old female to protect herself when attacked by the 6'4", 240-pound, 27-year-old male (or the 5'11", 160-pound female, etc). Then, after said defense takes place, the law sorts out the consequences: right-makes-right, rather than might-makes-right.

Or, in the absence of law enforcement, (e.g. the American frontier), it at least allows potential victims the potential to defend themselves, and gives potential attackers pause: even if they don't have to worry about being arrested and put on trial, they have to consider that their next victim might be armed.

Conversely, in the absence of firearms, the biggest and strongest wins. And in the presence of law enforcement, by the time the police arrive, it's too late.

For this reason, one of the first steps an oppressive government takes is to disarm the population. Examples of this go all the way back to even feudal Japan. It's kind of amazing that we still haven't learned our lesson. Idealism is great, but human lifetimes are relatively short, and human societies are clearly not a succession of "standing upon the shoulders of giants."

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could I have so clearly misinterpreted "GP can't take a joke" to be a refutation of my assertion the guy wasn't joking? Must be you were also telling a joke and I just don't get jokes.

See, you think it's personal and that I've made some kind of determination on your character based on my conclusion. You've totally come off the rails and started attacking me personally at the mere suspicion (not even to you!) that you might have misinterpreted things. I've merely read and worked with the information that was made available; you call this person a friend, for example. You were having lunch with this…

I understand what you're saying, but I think moron4hire has a very good point here.

There is no objective reading to be done here. You have available a single account from a single source. Despite having nothing but his account to go on, you think your interpretation is more correct. Despite him knowing this other person personally, in real life, and having been there in-person to witness body language and tone-of-voice, you think you are a better judge of that person's intent.

At the same time, of course, to you, moron4hire is just as random of a person as moron4hire's lunch companion, and equally likely to be the socially inept one of the two. So it's fine that you are skeptical of his interpretation; it's fine that you think he probably misinterpreted his friend's jesting.

But out of about three choices of how to respond, you chose the worst one.

a) You could have said nothing. Mildly amusing anecdote, skepticism registered, moving on.

b) You could have said something like, "I wonder if he was just kidding." Skepticism expressed without implying fault or incompetence, while leaving the door open for further, neutral discussion and elaboration by moron4hire.

But instead, you chose c) Explicitly accuse him of overreaction and misinterpretation, implying that you know better than him, despite his being there and your only reading his account, while also engaging in armchair psychoanalysis ("odd, and overly defensive, reaction...").

And that's just plain rude, as well as arrogant. It's basically the same as the "you put ketchup on your hot dog?!" reaction.

> I'm reading objectively and drawing my own conclusions rather than immediately buying into a single-sided narrative. That's what we should do when confronted with unfamiliar situations relayed by people we don't know, because it's the fundamental brick in the foundation of avoiding mobs, rash conclusions, beheading people over blogs, and so on.

Actually you're jumping to your own conclusions based upon a dearth of evidence. That's one of the causes of mob mentality. You think you're being objective, but you're actually just discounting his experience and drawing exclusively upon your own. And by accusing him of being wrong, you assert your own correctness and superiority, thus reinforcing your bias.

And this is the whole problem! People think they're being objective when they're merely replacing one subjective bias with another. No wonder there's so much arguing and misunderstanding in this world. :(

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#543
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've encountered quite a few posts that were unreadable. You mean they were so faded that the text merged with the background? Highlighting it with the mouse usually works for me in this case.

What I don't understand is why it apparently doesn't occur to the HN admins that "fading" peoples' posts into oblivion makes people pay more attention to them. If HN's intent is to make undesirable opinions less visible, it's a colossal failure. Often it's a waste of time to highlight those posts with my mouse, because they're usually downmodded for good reasons. But I still feel compelled to look, and I doubt I'm al…

For me, I think it actually works well as a user interface.

If I'm in a mood to be charitable and particularly open-minded, I can choose to squint closely or highlight with mouse, and read a greyed-out comment.

However, once that reading is done, the fact that it's greyed out means I don't feel the need to respond to it, correct it, etc. I know that it's being hidden, that people will give it less credence and attention. Plus, I just don't have to look at it once it's no longer highlighted.

In effect, greying out text is a gentle reminder to "don't feed the trolls"

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, you think it's personal and that I've made some kind of determination on your character based on my conclusion. You've totally come off the rails and started attacking me personally at the mere suspicion (not even to you!) that you might have misinterpreted things. I've merely read and worked with the information that was made available; you call this person a friend, for example. You were having lunch with this…

Holy shit you put a lot of thought and care into deconstructing that situation logically and rationally. You would probably make a great super-forecaster. Head over to Slate Star Codex! Thanks for doing such a thankless job. It made me smile on many levels.

But that's just it: it wasn't logical or rational. It was irrational and biased, because he wasn't even present at the event in question. He dismissed the only actual evidence available (the first-hand witness account) and fabricated his own story out of thin air based upon his own life experiences. Then he accused him of misinterpreting and overreacting. Mind-reading is bad enough second-hand, but third-hand?

And this passes for objectivity, logic, and reason? And this makes you smile?

Of course, the joke's really on all of us, because this kind of human interaction/communication/judgment/reasoning failure has been going on since the begnning of time. It's not as if I'm not guilty of it, too. And by the time we overcome it (if anyone ever does), we die, and people who haven't overcome it take our place.

Perhaps the ultimate lesson is to lower our expectations. Haha.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#545
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, now this is interesting. I can see that I often fail friendship tests such as yours. I don't actually tend to take things seriously, but I'm particularly bad at showing that I'm not taking something seriously. Or so I've been told, though I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing wrong. Fortunately I have an amazing wife and a few good friends, so making new ones isn't particularly important to me. Which I guess is li…

You're doing fine. I think there's need to be potential for friendship in the first place. If one person don't get the other's humour or the other person don't get the response, I think it could be because there's not enough shared experience or shared perspectives for the two people involved, and that's that. There's nothing you need to do - the kind of person you are, will likely be friends with, the kind of people…

understood. though, there are different rules of engagement for potential friends and a bunch of mostly random people with whom you're playing a game. Still, agreed, there may be place for offense. And offense can enter even without an invitation.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting: In World Series of Poker, "Thanks!" is one of the permitted auto-texts. I find it annoying when people say "Thanks!" immediately after winning a hand / before anyone compliments them on their play or win. Sounds like Hearthstone's "Hello" deathblows. That says something about language, how the rules affect what's considered "offensive," and how some will work within the rules to create new offenses.

hearthstone also allows "Thanks", and it is also used when you make a mistake (although there is also a "mistake" text). The interesting thing is that you could actually say "thanks" (or "well played" or "hello") in a neutral way, but if you are on the losing side you are very likely to interpret them as mocking any way, which personally increases my annoyance at losing wildly. I desperately crave for a "f* you" emot…

Mute sounds great. It also aligns interests: if you want to be heard, you won't want to act like too big a jerk. Be interesting to see how the mutes are manifested: is it quiet -- you know you've muted me but I don't -- or more-widely communicated? Be great if the mute action was broadcast to appropriate players. "riffraff has muted smcnally." Then others would have less tolerance for my nonsense if they had affinity for you, or they might view you as overly-sensitive if otherwise. The latter would govern abusive or reasonless muting.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#547
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple: no racism, sexism or any other de-humanizing speech based on identity is "clean enough".

How would you define the line between race discussion and rac ism ? Or between meaningful discourse about gender/sex and sex ism ?

It's not my job to pick a definition but Twitter's (and other social sites'). In fact, they already did (defining "hateful conduct"): "You may not promote violence against or directly attack or threaten other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, religious affiliation, age, disability, or disease." Pretty basic stuff.

If it was my choice, I'd pick a wider definition, accepting that there will be an area of uncertainty and errors. However, I think that it is still far better to exclude some people (for a while?) than to e.g. subject many more people to constantly being called pejorative terms (including implications to being a slave, an animal or an exhibit)/belittled because of identity/violently threatened etc.

You could also see it this way: up to now the officially used definition was in effect that nothing is racist/sexist.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#548
post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Care to back that up with actual evidence?

Goddammit. Seriously. It's well-known that all kinds of intelligence are correlated, at least at the lower end. There is such a thing as a benchmark of the brain that gives a one-dimensional result that tells us a something significant about that person. You're just being touchy-feely superstitious (which is way better than the scared-of-different kind of superstitious, but still).

Then I'm sure you'll find it very easy to provide the study that confirms your claims.

You are the first person I've ever heard that called asking for evidence "superstitious". You might want to look up the definition of that word. Goddammit indeed.

Try not to get too touchy-feely in your reply, just give me the studies you are referring to.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own personal experience with SO as a Q&A site is I've had a literally 0% success rate. None of the questions I've posted have ever been successfully answered. (Now I don't even bother.) I think that's because the site encourages people to get all the internetpointzzz reputation currency, and not to, you know, actually answer questions. And the questions I asked were somewhat difficult, because I'm not a dummy and…

Have you found... anything... anywhere that will answer your questions? Because like you, I'm relatively bright and I do a lot of research before asking my questions. Hence they tend to get zero answers from: IRC, mailing lists, personal emails of luminaries, Stack Overflow, Slashdot, or anywhere. Generally I just keep hammering away and digging deeper until I figure out which CPU register is flipping wrongly that, t…

Not really.

I usually just assume if the question isn't answered by 2-3 different mediums, it's unanswerable. Then I work-around it, usually with some horrible hack that I hate.

Most recently, I was trying to twist and mold WebAPI2 into accepting a multipart/form-data request while also using the auto-serializer. I asked everywhere and every one, and nothing. The work-around is just awful, goddamned awful, but oh well.

I blame the developers who apparently think this REST API is "done" despite it being impossible to, for example, upload a user's profile image using it. Guh.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own personal experience with SO as a Q&A site is I've had a literally 0% success rate. None of the questions I've posted have ever been successfully answered. (Now I don't even bother.) I think that's because the site encourages people to get all the internetpointzzz reputation currency, and not to, you know, actually answer questions. And the questions I asked were somewhat difficult, because I'm not a dummy and…

Catching all the pointzz (it also has badges!!) can be a problem. Especially on SO itself, there can be a race to answer a question, which means the quality of the answers suffers sometimes. Difficult questions really don't work well, sadly. Unless there is the rare situation that some expert out there happens to know the answer and has the spare time to post a long detailed reply. Didn't realise you couldn't answer…

Right; but the thing is, the only questions I ever have are the difficult questions. Easy questions are either:

* Something I can figure out myself if I think about it for a few minutes, or

* Already on StackOverflow or another Q&A site so I can look them up.

IMO if the site doesn't tackle difficult questions, what's the point? I don't need yet another site for easy questions, I need a Q&A site to get my questions answered.

RE: the answering my own question thing -

Yeah, the people in control of the site all have like 573453247,3048294723847 rep so they think nothing of saying "well doing action X should require rep" followed by the old canard, "it's really easy to get that much rep!"

I seriously wonder if any of those people have actually created a new account and tried to use their own website. Because there's SO MANY LIMITATIONS on SO MANY THINGS tied to rep, if you come in from the outside there's actually very little you can actually do. And there's no way to ease-in to using the site, because you can't (for example) post comments on other people's answers until after you gain rep.

So if you're like me, and you have no patience/desire to play the internetpointzzz game, nor did you start using the site "early enough" to benefit from its population growth, and the fact that early users could do a LOT more without rep limits-- then you're kind of just stuck in this weird no-man's land.

(I didn't use the site when it was founded because of it's bizarre and foolish insistence on using OpenID. Thankfully they've finally moved away from that.)

Theoretically, I could gain rep (by playing the game), then add a "bounty" to my difficult questions to get them answered, but I ain't got time for that! Who does?

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