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Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

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Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#51

Post by rhino369 »

jorgecurio wrote: post #6

what confuses me about the US-Israeli relationship is that the most of the times they work well but at times one is always sabatoging each other in a manner that makes you reconsider, is Israel and enemy or a friend to the United States? I don't think Japan would pull off shit like this. It's like there's a four tier system to what defines a US Ally. Platinum - Gets you exclusive access to black funds & latest weapon…

I think the US is a bigger ally to Israel than vice versa. But even allies spy on each other. The US certainly does it to Germany.

I think Israel's history and geo-political position makes them much more skiddish than other countries. A significant portion of their society was formed from holocaust survivors. And then it fought a series of wars against it's neighbors. A significance loss could be disastrous for them.

There is some reason for them to be suspicious of America. During The 1973 war, the US told them not to preemptively attack, which may have cost them dearly (it's not clear if Americas advice was the reason they didn't). The US considered not re-arming the Israeli's during that war when they needed supplies and weapons.

But they also have little to offer the United States. If a Warsaw/NATO war happened in the 1950-80s it would have been Europeans dying by the millions too. Israel is never going to a key ally to the US.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#52

Post by fsck--off »

If you want to read more about the two different Stuxnet attacks, I highly recommend Ralph Langner's 2013 write-up "To Kill A Centrifuge"

http://www.langner.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/To-kill... (36 page PDF)

Langner was the first researcher (outside of those who were involved in its creation) to discover Stuxnet.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#53

Post by wernercd »

BWStearns wrote: post #41
hackuser wrote: post #31

Remember that while Israel is a first world country, it's tiny. It's population is 8.4 million, 1/40th of the U.S. and about the size of New York City proper (not suburban, which is ~20 million). Probably the Israeli government does not have the same level of talent and other resources that the U.S. government does. Imagine if the NSA was staffed only with residents of NYC, for example. (However, 3 of 8 US Supreme Co…

This is a bit offset by their large proportional tech sector and compulsory service. The NSA (and gov tech in general) would be a hell of a lot better if everyone had to do a year or two of government service. Clarification: not to imply that the NSA is bad at their job currently, but if they could borrow two years off of every technical person in the country I can't see how that could hurt.

Yes and no...

Yes, because there would be a bigger pool to choose from. For the same reason that bigger schools have better sports teams: More Athletic types... Having a bigger pool of candidates means you have more chance to get specific with your choices.

No, because then you would be using the "Draft". There is a reason the US moved away from it in after Vietnam and went to an "All Volunteer" force. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta... )

Personally, I think those types of services (Military, FBI, etc) should be volunteer... last thing you want is your back being guarded or secrets been covered by someone who doesn't agree with or want to be there.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#54

Post by S_A_P »

BWStearns wrote: post #50

>> The deadly virus >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) >> to invent a “vaccine” >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Is anyone else not wild about the manner in which "cyber" articles get written? I feel like non-technical readers are left mildly concerned that they're going to come down with a…

I chalked it up to a language barrier, but yeah, it was very dramatic language used to describe computer code...

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#55

Post by sithadmin »

guelo wrote: post #35
x5n1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has interests and not friends. Israelis understand this. Similarly Israel has interests and not friends. They are interested in protecting their own interests. Even if it costs Americans for them to do so. So you can basically say Israelis learned how to play these games from Americans.

But Israelis have bought our corruptible political system to the point where all our politicians fight each other to prove who is more of a "friend" to Israel. If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country.

>If the US where acting in its real best interest it would keep Israel at much more of an arm's length. In a way Israel is much more of a dangerous enemy to American democracy than Iran, Russia, China or any other country.

This hardly matters to the most ardent Israel supporters in the USA: the sort that believe that propping up Israel is the key to realizing the Christian apocalypse mythos.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#56

Post by chx »

jorgecurio wrote: post #6

what confuses me about the US-Israeli relationship is that the most of the times they work well but at times one is always sabatoging each other in a manner that makes you reconsider, is Israel and enemy or a friend to the United States? I don't think Japan would pull off shit like this. It's like there's a four tier system to what defines a US Ally. Platinum - Gets you exclusive access to black funds & latest weapon…

I think you misunderstand the relationship. One, there are civilians, extremely rich civilians who are sending more than a pretty penny to Israel. Two, the US government is essentially bribing the Israel government to stay put and not kill everyone around them. I believe most people vastly underestimate the military might of Israel. Did you know, for example, that Israel has unmanned ground vehicles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardium essentially mini tanks already operational? They have main battle tanks which can intercept RPGs and even anti tank guided missiles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava#Mk_IVm_Windbreaker . If Israel wanted to wreak havoc in the region, they certainly could. I was and still surprised they didn't grab a bit of Syria.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#57

Post by 0xffff2 »

sithadmin wrote: post #45
hackuser wrote: post #31

Remember that while Israel is a first world country, it's tiny. It's population is 8.4 million, 1/40th of the U.S. and about the size of New York City proper (not suburban, which is ~20 million). Probably the Israeli government does not have the same level of talent and other resources that the U.S. government does. Imagine if the NSA was staffed only with residents of NYC, for example. (However, 3 of 8 US Supreme Co…

>Imagine if the NSA was staffed only with residents of NYC Bad analogy. Israel aggressively imports tech/engineering/science talent from the global Jewish diaspora.

I think it might actually be a pretty good analogy. Doesn't NYC (along with SV and maybe a few other parts of the country) do the same?

The NSA staffed only with residents of NYC would probably look very different from the NSA staffed only by residents of the state of Michigan.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#58

Post by iSnow »

BWStearns wrote: post #50

>> The deadly virus >> “changed the code” (the scare quotes bit) >> to invent a “vaccine” >> the secret formula... fell into the hands of Russia and Iran >> increasingly stronger versions of the virus >> the most deadly version of the virus Is anyone else not wild about the manner in which "cyber" articles get written? I feel like non-technical readers are left mildly concerned that they're going to come down with a…

That whole newspaper site seems pretty low-brow and clickbaity.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#59

Post by ArnoldP »

obelisk_ wrote: post #3

>Pictures of then-Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s visit to the Natanz facility helped the experts obtain needed intelligence on the computers. The computers, their configuration and their rear connections can be seen clearly in the pictures. Eventually, these entry and exit points served as portals to implant the virus. I doubt that this alone was all they needed. Probably once they had identified the vendors…

It also helps the idea that the highest administration at the time brought about their own downfall with something as trivial as a pr stunt.

Re: Unilateral Israeli changes to Stuxnet caused its exposure, angering US

#60

Post by AsyncAwait »

Jerry2 wrote: post #12
samstave wrote: post #2

Stuxnet was such an amazing event. The speculation at first, the quasi confirmation a little later based on certain items in the code. The dissection of it and the tech talks by Microsoft and others on its design and build... And then that it had a successor - and now it comes out that Israel and US squabbling over what team did what which allowed it to be exposed. It is such an amazing cornerstone in the cyberpunk r…

> If you haven't watched the tech talks on stuxnet and duqu, please do - super interesting. If you or someone else has some recommendations on which ones are worth watching, please do let us know.

For a broader overview of Stuxnet and the surrounding situation, I would recommend the book "Countdown to Zero Day" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0770436196
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